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[Tom's Hardware]Best Graphics Cards For The Money: January 2013 - Page 8

post #71 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by HellAce View Post

STR8 IGNORANCE, that comment was......jeez guy, maybe if you said the 7970 it wouldnt seem that far out but damn lol

He's talking about OC'd 7950 beating stock 680 performance, which is true, but admittedly stupid since a 680 OC's as well.
post #72 of 115
I dont think that's ignorance...

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HIS/HD_7950_X2_Boost/31.html

That's at 1200 MHz, but it's not far fetched to think that a 7950 at 1100 MHz would be faster than a stock 680.
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post #73 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

Once AMD fixes the Driver Problems the GTX670 will go back to being a slower and less value card. The 7950 has already proved itself to match the frame rate of a gtx670 even with the 7950 being 150mhz less on the clock speed. Sure the current drivers introduce frame latencys, but thats being fixed nothing more to be said by that.
Catalyst Control + Radeon Pro will give you most everything that Nvidia Gives you. Physx is a joke for the most part and 3DVision is more of a gimmick for a certain few, I have a 3D capable monitor and will never use it. Plus i'm not the only one who thinks that CC looks better and has a better UI then the old stale looking Nvidia control. The last time I actually like the design of a Nvidia control panel was the old design (the DX9 card's UI) During the 6000 series.

7970GE is still the fastest card, and is only getting faster. You need a 1400mhz GTX680 to beat out a 7970GE @1250-1300. Even Games like BF3 runs better on the 7970, when pushing clocks pretty high up the 7970 can have a good 10-20fps lead of the overclocked counter part.

While I have been a pretty big Nvidia fan over the years, even I am not arrogant enough to say Nvidia has the better product.
Nvidia may use less watts, and may not run as hot(mostly depends on card). But they also offer less gaming performance and less Compute performance. Only one who wants to do Cuda is getting a gtx580 or waiting for the Titan. In OpenGL(what will overtake Cuda sooner or later) AMD cards are such a good deal faster.

Also Cross Fire Also tends to scale better, which is a major plus if your looking to maximize your frame rate. And while SLI does get better Driver support, well more like quicker support. Never had a problem with Micro stutter with ether. My last CF setup was near perfect for the most part, sure you may have to wait longer for same fixes but you tend to have better performance in the long run.

The way I see it what is using better tech? GCN vs Kepler. My Vote is GCN, by far the most balanced architecture. And if anything the lack of Driver budget has been the biggest thorn in GCN.

Plus current Nvidia Drives are pretty lackluster. I don't wanna roll back because of FC3, but games like BF3 sure don't run as smooth as older drivers. If anything as of late Nvidia has been slacking on drivers and AMD has been showing dedication to make the drivers better. Should be great for all the HD8000 series users. As I'll jump on the HD8970 train right away, as Titan will probably be pretty lackluster in the gaming department and mostly only good at cuda. Though Will sell the 8970 and will get the titan if it will be worth it, probably not going to happen though.

Who exactly is 'being arrogant', and saying 'nV has the better product'? All I saw was Stefy saying the AMD is better product, and accusing 50% of the buyers of Kepler doing so solely on account of being 'fanboys' ... to which I provided a retort.

I certainly never said anything about which is the 'better product', only explained that there were plenty of valid reason's for people to have chosen nV this round (esp. the early adopters, prior to AMD finally (apparently) getting their stuff together with drivers ... like 9 months after the fact) ... meaning, you know the reasons ASIDE from them just being 'fanboys'.

And I really don't see GCN as being the 'superior architecture' (let alone, 'by far'), at least not insofar as the application that 99% of us use our cards for (gaming) goes. I would venture a guess to say that had nV released Kepler with a 384-bit bus with 3GB of vram (the lack of which has nothing to do with the 'architecture' of the chip), the Kepler cards would be the ones doing the stomping. AMD was simply more generous this round in terms of affixing more memory controllers and PCB traces, but that really has little to do with the underlying chip architecture.

Regardless of whether you 'have a problem' with microstutter, the majority of the data (that I've ever seen, and I've seen a number of articles) tends to show that SLI is more reliable in avoiding the issue than Crossfire, which matters to some people (fanboy, or not biggrin.gif).

And the issue of frame latency (aka microstutter) you spoke of earlier is potentially an important piece of the equation in terms of actual 'perceived' performance. Do you understand that a GPU manufacturer can (almost) magically achieve higher FPS scores simply by relaxing the parameters involved in the framerate metering algorithms?

I personally suspect that AMD has done just this (just as I believe they did in the past when they magically increased their multi-gpu scaling by 15% with a driver release back when I was rocking 5850's in Crossfire) with the recent 12.7 drivers (or whatever the revision was that has many of the Tahiti adopters gloating about it all over the place, day-in/day-out).

I'm not stating it is known fact, but I am suggesting that I would not be the least surprised if it's eventually determined that these drivers achieved their gains (both the single card, and in the case of the vaunted 'Crossfire Scaling') directly by the mechanism of allowing increased frame latency. This is no small issue, because one's perception of smoothness is actually determined by the measure of maximum frametimes, not by the average FPS thumb.gif
    
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post #74 of 115
To your last point, that's already been figured out with the 13.2 beta drivers. There is basically no difference in average FPS except for Guild Wars 2, which is odd.

http://techreport.com/review/24218/a-driver-update-to-reduce-radeon-frame-times
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post #75 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by HellAce View Post

Ok Mr. Mod sir, since calling people "Fanboys" is frowned upon......i will just have to call out your "Bias". I can understand that you may be loyal to your preferred brand but dont belittle the other just to make your point go across better. I wouldnt care if you would being completely subjective and talking about what you prefer, had the things you said backed up with reliable research articles and benchmarks.

All the things ive bolded were either your oppinion which you tried to state as fact and the others just pure speculation and rumors with no hard evidence. If you wish to prove me wrong, back up everything yo just said with proof of some sort.

Ohh and the one bolded the biggest made me shake my head the most. Please show me these benchmarks if you wish, but i gotta say i will denfinately disagree with you on the part about the 7970 being equal to or lesser than the 670 until then. That is all sir......good day thumb.gif

1) Actually, it was the person I was responding to who did the belittling, calling people 'fanboys'. I never belittled anybody in my post. If you'd care to show me the 'belittling', I'm all ears ...

2) Keep in mind that the purpose of my post is that of laying out ALTERNATE explanations aside from 'fanboy-ism' as to why SOMEONE may have chosen Kepler over Tahiti this round. I humbly suggest that you go back and re-read my post with this idea in mind.

3) I've owned both SLI and Crossfire, in numerous configurations, with lots of different cards. IMHO ... what I said about the subject is precisely true. And I know there are many others with the same opinion. It doesn't matter whether I can 'prove that it's fact' ... or not. Given that I'm providing an 'alternate explanation to fanboyism', all that matters is that SOMEONE ... believes what I said to be fact. Are you suggesting that there's NOBODY ... who believes what I said above about SLI vs. Crossfire? Cause I can REALLY easily prove that supposition incorrect. However, as it so happens, there's a number of articles out there showing that microstutter is generally worse in Crossfire vs. SLI. In fact, most of the AMD fans on this site know precisely the articles I'm referring to. So ... did you really need me to dig them up, or are you just being pedantic?

4) Your biggest BOLD, the one you apparently have the BIGGEST problem with ... is CLEARLY stated as being my opinion. I said I WOULDN'T TRADE my card for a 7970. How can you possibly say that I'm incorrectly 'stating my opinion as fact' ... when all I'm talking about is what I, personally, would DO or NOT DO? That's just silly, dude. Try trading me your 7970 for my 670 ... and see what I say. Until you've done so, and you make a liar out of me by my response ... what I said was 100% factual.

5) It's pretty much common knowledge amongst the people who've been paying attention that afa game performance goes, Kepler has higher performance per watt. This was accomplished by removing some compute capability (not needed for gaming in roughly 99.99% of games) from the Kepler chip. One may argue whether this is good or bad (and we have around here, 'til the cows came home, as they say), but it's pretty much a known fact. And again, if you REALLY need me to show you evidence that this is true, I certainly can ... you just let me know. And it's pretty much axiomatic that if perf/watt is better, that the chip runs cooler ... it's simple physics, really thumb.gif

But again, the point of my missive is that these are alternate explanations to people's buying decisions beside fanboy-ism. Ergo, all that I really need to do to prove the case I'm setting forth is to prove that there's at least one person who BELIEVES ... each of the things I've set forth in my post. Given that I know that *I* believe every one of those things ... this validates the overall argument I'm making.

The really paradoxical thing about the situation is that I actually dislike nVidia (and Intel for that matter), and I LOVE LOVE LOVE AMD. But ... I actually prefer the total package provided by the 670/680 over that of the 7950/7970 ... so I held me nose and bought the nV card. I'm certainly NOT, in ANY WAY, saying that the actual piece of nVidia hardware is 'superior' to that provided by AMD. Far from it. I'm simply saying that *I PREFER* the Kepler offerings, as a total package ... and it has NOTHING to do with being a 'fanboy'. Which is what this whole discussion stemmed from, the suggestion that this is the only likely explanation for making that choice thumb.gif
    
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post #76 of 115
Graphic cards is the most interesting field yet the most uninteresting one at the same time.

Nvidia and AMD both must have some gentlemen agreement not to knock each other out and milk the market the most they can. After all they need each other. They are so alike with performance its not even funny. I`m pretty sure they could have unleashed a fully GCN/Kepler card a long time ago, but instead push out mediocre GPUs from that architecture first, let people buy that, wait 6 months, go a step up.

Luckily for them the jump from one architecture let them do that instead of revealing themselves as the thieves they really are. Sucks for us users who really could have a sick GPU a long time ago.

thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
Edited by Cloudfire777 - 1/27/13 at 2:02pm
post #77 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post

You are speculating. AMD's 13.2 beta has already been shown to resolve latency issues in specific games like Skyrim and Borderlands 2. The next driver after that will address all DX11 and DX10 games as it includes a new memory manager which improves frame latency in general. You are willing to doubt AMD's performance improvements but are ignoring Nvidia's own issues. Nvidia has to fix what seems to be frame latency issues of their own in the recent 310.70 and 310.90 whql drivers. see post no.8 on that forum page. At 1080p HD 7970 Ghz is much more smoother than GTX 680.

http://alienbabeltech.com/abt/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27699

here are ocn threads about the BF3 stuttering
http://www.overclock.net/t/1346657/battlefield-3-unplayable-on-r310-drivers
http://www.overclock.net/t/1339698/the-eternal-question-which-is-better-hd-7870-vs-660-ti-benchmarks-inside

Actually, I'm explaining that there are reasons for buying Kepler this round that do not depend on pure 'fanboy-ism', Raghu.

AFA my 'speculations' go, yes, I'm speculating based on incomplete but still fairly compelling evidence. The interesting thing is going to be seeing whether these latency issues can actually be 'resolved' ... without bringing the 7970 back down into the range of the same avg fps performance it was achieving on the games PRIOR to the magical driver release. IOW, 'fixing it' is one thing. I never had any doubt that they could. But lets just say, *what if* they sorta cheated in the first place, and they actually gimped the framerate metering to get better FPS?

If so, would you expect them to do 'oh, yeah, hey, we're busted! Sorry, y'all?' Or would you expect them to go 'Oh hey, look guyz! We made our cards even better, with new, improved memory management!". I know which I'd do if I were them. So the key is going to be ... are they able to KEEP the FPS gains, even w/this improved memory management, or no?

I'm not saying I *know* what's going on, only what I 'have my suspicions' about. I could totally be wrong.

And I'm always quite clear about it when I'm speculating ... which, as an aside, is not something that I've noticed you to be particularly good about doing wink.gif
    
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post #78 of 115
brettjv did you not read my post? Skyrim, Borderlands, and Guild Wars 2 had the frame latency problem resolved with the 13.2 beta drivers. There was no change in average FPS. Guild Wars did drop about 5 FPS but even TechReport say that is uncharacteristic of frame latency improvements.
Quote:
Amazingly, the FPS average for the Catalyst 13.2 is lower than for 12.11, even though the newer driver's latency profile has obviously improved. That's an unusual outcome; we'd generally expect latency-focused improvements to yield slight gains in FPS averages, as well. Given the choice, though, we'd take the more consistent frame times of the new driver over the higher FPS average of the older one.
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post #79 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChaos View Post

brettjv did you not read my post? Skyrim, Borderlands, and Guild Wars 2 had the frame latency problem resolved with the 13.2 beta drivers. There was no change in average FPS. Guild Wars did drop about 5 FPS but even TechReport say that is uncharacteristic of frame latency improvements.

I tested GW2 myself with 12.11 Beta 11 and 13.2 Beta. Both got similar AVG fps. 13.2 frame times where better. Something which was not a problem for me because i was getting 90fps + in the game and the time is very small like 8-10ms.
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post #80 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChaos View Post

brettjv did you not read my post? Skyrim, Borderlands, and Guild Wars 2 had the frame latency problem resolved with the 13.2 beta drivers. There was no change in average FPS. Guild Wars did drop about 5 FPS but even TechReport say that is uncharacteristic of frame latency improvements.

Catalyst 13.1 whql lost frames in three games in Ocaholic's test suite including Skyrim which lost 6 fps compared to 12.11 beta 4.

Don't forget, the current 13.2 being tested was not meant for public release.
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