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[Tom's Hardware]Best Graphics Cards For The Money: January 2013 - Page 9

post #81 of 115
13.1 doesn't include any frame latency fixes though so that is a separate issue altogether.
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post #82 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post

1) Actually, it was the person I was responding to who did the belittling, calling people 'fanboys'. I never belittled anybody in my post. If you'd care to show me the 'belittling', I'm all ears ...

2) Keep in mind that the purpose of my post is that of laying out ALTERNATE explanations aside from 'fanboy-ism' as to why SOMEONE may have chosen Kepler over Tahiti this round. I humbly suggest that you go back and re-read my post with this idea in mind.

3) I've owned both SLI and Crossfire, in numerous configurations, with lots of different cards. IMHO ... what I said about the subject is precisely true. And I know there are many others with the same opinion. It doesn't matter whether I can 'prove that it's fact' ... or not. Given that I'm providing an 'alternate explanation to fanboyism', all that matters is that SOMEONE ... believes what I said to be fact. Are you suggesting that there's NOBODY ... who believes what I said above about SLI vs. Crossfire? Cause I can REALLY easily prove that supposition incorrect. However, as it so happens, there's a number of articles out there showing that microstutter is generally worse in Crossfire vs. SLI. In fact, most of the AMD fans on this site know precisely the articles I'm referring to. So ... did you really need me to dig them up, or are you just being pedantic?

4) Your biggest BOLD, the one you apparently have the BIGGEST problem with ... is CLEARLY stated as being my opinion. I said I WOULDN'T TRADE my card for a 7970. How can you possibly say that I'm incorrectly 'stating my opinion as fact' ... when all I'm talking about is what I, personally, would DO or NOT DO? That's just silly, dude. Try trading me your 7970 for my 670 ... and see what I say. Until you've done so, and you make a liar out of me by my response ... what I said was 100% factual.

5) It's pretty much common knowledge amongst the people who've been paying attention that afa game performance goes, Kepler has higher performance per watt. This was accomplished by removing some compute capability (not needed for gaming in roughly 99.99% of games) from the Kepler chip. One may argue whether this is good or bad (and we have around here, 'til the cows came home, as they say), but it's pretty much a known fact. And again, if you REALLY need me to show you evidence that this is true, I certainly can ... you just let me know. And it's pretty much axiomatic that if perf/watt is better, that the chip runs cooler ... it's simple physics, really thumb.gif

But again, the point of my missive is that these are alternate explanations to people's buying decisions beside fanboy-ism. Ergo, all that I really need to do to prove the case I'm setting forth is to prove that there's at least one person who BELIEVES ... each of the things I've set forth in my post. Given that I know that *I* believe every one of those things ... this validates the overall argument I'm making.

The really paradoxical thing about the situation is that I actually dislike nVidia (and Intel for that matter), and I LOVE LOVE LOVE AMD. But ... I actually prefer the total package provided by the 670/680 over that of the 7950/7970 ... so I held me nose and bought the nV card. I'm certainly NOT, in ANY WAY, saying that the actual piece of nVidia hardware is 'superior' to that provided by AMD. Far from it. I'm simply saying that *I PREFER* the Kepler offerings, as a total package ... and it has NOTHING to do with being a 'fanboy'. Which is what this whole discussion stemmed from, the suggestion that this is the only likely explanation for making that choice thumb.gif

1.) its not that i felt you were belittle-ling someone here....i meant you were belittle-ling AMD cards

2.) Ok i understand now....i admit i didnt fully understand why you were saying that, now i see you were talking about "theoretical" reasons

3.) No its fine, i actually looked it up myself. Now even though i may understand what you said to be true, it seemed to me as if you wanted to say SLI is better than crossfire for that reason

4.) Ok, again i thought you were saying that because you think AMDs 7970 is inferior in some way. This is why i asked you to prove its inferiority

5. This one i need evidence of, cant really digest this so called "Fact"

Since you attempted to clear this up for me i understand you werent being bias.....but on number 5 i would need some hard evidence saying so to believe that, i think that is way to broad of a statement to prove.
    
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post #83 of 115
If they want to buy Nvidia, let them rofl.

Meanwhile I'll be enjoying better performance thumb.gif
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post #84 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChaos View Post

brettjv did you not read my post? Skyrim, Borderlands, and Guild Wars 2 had the frame latency problem resolved with the 13.2 beta drivers. There was no change in average FPS. Guild Wars did drop about 5 FPS but even TechReport say that is uncharacteristic of frame latency improvements.

I suggest that the 'source' of the 'latency problem' dictates whether one would expect an increase or decrease in the average FPS. Keep in mind that the way one 'notices' latency is via comparing a collection of frametimes (I'm going to use that term here, but it's more accurately described as 'the time to render each frame') against one another, and looking for a recurring pattern where 1 out of every X (where X is usually 2 - 4) frames exhibits a longer time to render than the surrounding frames.

So the question becomes, are the 'fast' frametimes inordinately fast, or are the 'latent' frames inordinately slow? Which one (or both) of those two possible scenarios is 'true' dictates whether 'latency improvements' will cause an increase or a decrease in average FPS. All that the process of 'improving latency' is doing is, in a general sense, reducing the standard deviation (i.e. the variability) in the frametimes, bringing them closer together. This can theoretically result in average going up, or down.

This is especially true with multi-gpu setups, wherein it's quite simple via driver tweaks to increase 'scaling' at the expense of an even frame-time distribution. In a single card scenario though, I will concur w/TR ... generally-speaking, reducing 'latency' should be more likely to improve average FPS rather than reduce it. BUT ... in either case (esp. with multi-gpu), if there's an observation that it does NOT ... it can sometimes point towards driver shenanigans.
Edited by brettjv - 1/27/13 at 4:36pm
    
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post #85 of 115
Man, I hate these threads.

People are debating over something so minimal.

@brettjv doh.gif
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post #86 of 115
The 660ti and 7870 are about equals in terms of GPU performance for the most part. While not being vary far apart in power usage. If anything GCN and Kepler are pretty close on Performance Per Watt
The 7870 also has less shader cores but more memory bandwidth. The 7870 also has more ROPs but less TMUs, Also the 660ti will boost the clock speed higher then the standard 7870's clock speed. While during all of this the 7870 tend to have slightly lower power usage...

Tack equal memory bandwidth along with equal ROPs and TMUs and the number of extra GCN cores to overtake Kepler's Cuda cores is only probably around 100-150 extra shaders if everything is equal. Along with pretty close clock speeds and I just don't see kepler having better game performance while still having less power usage.
Edited by DzillaXx - 1/27/13 at 4:43pm
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post #87 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

The 660ti and 7870 are about equals in terms of GPU performance for the most part. While not being vary far apart in power usage. If anything Cape Verde/Pitcairin and Kepler are pretty close on Performance Per Watt
The 7870 also has less shader cores but more memory bandwidth. The 7870 also has more ROPs but less TMUs, Also the 660ti will boost the clock speed higher then the standard 7870's clock speed. While during all of this the 7870 tend to have slightly lower power usage...

Tack equal memory bandwidth along with equal ROPs and TMUs and the number of extra GCN cores to overtake Kepler's Cuda cores is only probably around 100-150 extra shaders. Along with pretty close clock speeds and I just don't see kepler having better game performance while still having less power usage.

FTFY, Tahiti(especially XT) is hotter than and less Power efficient than GK104 which make sense since the much larger die for Tahiti, the other two GCN chip are pretty good in performance/watt.
Edited by sherlock - 1/27/13 at 4:49pm
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post #88 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

FTFY, Tahiti(especially XT) is hotter than and less Power efficient than Kepler, the other two GCN chip are pretty good in performance/watt.

Can't really compare Tahiti to current kepler on a efficiency scale as Kepler lacks things the 7970 has. Like Bigger memory bandwidth and extremely more compute power.

Pitcairn is the closest thing AMD has to Nvdia in terms of being cut down. A Pitcairn chip with as many shaders as the 7970 or the 680 would be the best way to compare the two cards. Thats why I picked 660ti and 7870. As a comparison of GCN and Kepler vs 7870 and 660ti.
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post #89 of 115
Wow. They didn't use a 7970 GHZ edition... That's just silly.

Edit: JK, I can't read it seems. Still, GHZ cards drop to $400 often enough.
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post #90 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcal View Post

Wow. They didn't use a 7970 GHZ edition... That's just silly.

Edit: JK, I can't read it seems. Still, GHZ cards drop to $400 often enough.

I have seen them drop below $380 new, hell I bought mine on Amazon Warehouse for $302 shipped two-day shipping, an MSi 7970 OC. It haa over 2 and a half years left on the warranty. Since buying mine I have seen a few more down below $340 on Amazon Warehouse. I can't say I have seen the same price breaks on Nvidia cards, though I have seen good ones still.

My point? If you look in the right places you can score some deals that pretty much put this entire list to shame and nullify it.
    
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Tom's Hardware]Best Graphics Cards For The Money: January 2013