Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [Y!] Billion Euro supercomputer to 'simulate entire human brain'
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[Y!] Billion Euro supercomputer to 'simulate entire human brain' - Page 4

post #31 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Of Pain View Post

No, it can't become sentient or conscious.

It cannot feel anything, and it's not aware of its surroundings. Even if it was, it wouldn't be awake.

Human arrogance.
What makes you think that a computer, advanced enough to truly replicate every aspect of the human brain, couldn't display emotions and other "human" phenomena?
After all, there's nothing "magic" to it; the brain is a deterministic physics-based machine, and those can be replicated.
post #32 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Of Pain View Post

No, it can't become sentient or conscious.

It cannot feel anything, and it's not aware of its surroundings. Even if it was, it wouldn't be awake.

Well that's just the question. I have no idea whether or not it would be, nor am I sure anyone else could currently answer that question. It basically stems from philosophical question of whether or not conscious is a material trait, or if it is something else.

I would imagine that it could "act" as if it felt even if it was not aware of feeling if you fed it the tactical nerve signals. And, I would imagine that emotions would be observable at least from the purely mechanical neurological/hormone perspective. But as to whether or not it actually "feels" like we do is a whole entirely different question.

Honestly, the implications scare me a bit but do intrigue me. Basically, I only raised the conscious question for ethical concerns. If it was or could be, I would not feel comfortable just running it or experimenting on it.
post #33 of 93
... I don't understand the doubt in this thread. A simulation is an attempt to model something as accurately as possible. Our brains aren't magical, they're just a series of chemical processes. If a simulation of the brain is accurate enough then that simulation would feel emotion just as a human brain does, because it's accurately modeling the same processes that make emotion possible in the human brain.

And yes, if they model an infants brain, then they would get an infants thought processes. However if they model an adults brain they would get an adults thoughts. I doubt if they have the wherewithal to create a model from scratch so I bet they would be copying someones actual brain through mri's and ct's and every other scanning technology we have.

If a simulation is accurate enough that it's indistinguishable from the real thing then it might as well be the real thing. We don't have the wherewithal to do this sort of thing yet, but eventually we will.
post #34 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by crust_cheese View Post

Human arrogance.
What makes you think that a computer, advanced enough to truly replicate every aspect of the human brain, couldn't display emotions and other "human" phenomena?
After all, there's nothing "magic" to it; the brain is a deterministic physics-based machine, and those can be replicated.

Arrogance? I'm merely comparing the computer to definitions. If it doesn't fit those definition then I don't think it's conscious or sentient.

Displaying every aspect of the human brain requires it to be able to make cognitions, too. Cognitions which are pre-determined by how the software is written.

But then, our brains are deterministic and physics-based, and determinism is an idea I subscribe to (I hate the notion of the existence of free will).

Therefore I take my hat off to you sir or madam, you are correct. Why can't a computer become sentient or conscious? Or whatever the equivalent of a thinking human is..
Servant of Sigmar
(11 items)
 
RedHax0r V2
(11 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-7700K Gigabyte GA-Z270-HD3P Zotac GeForce GTX 1070 AMP Extreme 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3000MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
120GB Sandisk SSD 240GB ADATA SSD Samsung Be Quiet! Pure Rock Slim 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 64 Bit Seasonic 520W Non-modular Aerocool Aero 800 white 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
R5 1500X Asus Prime B350 Plus Sapphire RX 480 Kingston HyperX Fury 16GB DDR4 2400MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
120GB Sandisk SSD 1TB WD Blue Yes AMD Wraith Spire 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 64 Bit Corsair CS430 Antec VSK 4000B 
  hide details  
Reply
Servant of Sigmar
(11 items)
 
RedHax0r V2
(11 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-7700K Gigabyte GA-Z270-HD3P Zotac GeForce GTX 1070 AMP Extreme 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3000MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
120GB Sandisk SSD 240GB ADATA SSD Samsung Be Quiet! Pure Rock Slim 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 64 Bit Seasonic 520W Non-modular Aerocool Aero 800 white 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
R5 1500X Asus Prime B350 Plus Sapphire RX 480 Kingston HyperX Fury 16GB DDR4 2400MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
120GB Sandisk SSD 1TB WD Blue Yes AMD Wraith Spire 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 64 Bit Corsair CS430 Antec VSK 4000B 
  hide details  
Reply
post #35 of 93
I love the notion of free will and I believe everything can be explained by a physical process...even our consciousness.

Were just not there yet! And if it's "Magic" then we can explain that too! smile.gif
Computer
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 2500K / 4.5Ghz / 1.368v / 212 EVO+ ASUS P8Z77-V LK EVGA Geforce GTX 680 / 2GB / 1228MHz / 3479MHz Kingston HyperX Blu Black / 1600Mhz / 8GB (2x4GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOS
OCZ Vertex 4 / SSD / 128GB Seagate ST500413AS / HDD / SATA / 500GB Seagate ST1000DM003 / HDD / SATA / 1000GB Windows 8.1 Pro / 64Bit / Full 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Samsung S23A700D / 120Hz / 23" Dell 2312HM / IPS / 23" LG IPS231 / IPS / 23" CMStorm Quick Fire Rapid 
PowerMouseMouse PadAudio
Seasonic X760 / 80 Plus Gold Zowie AM SteelSeries NP+ M-Audio Q40 with Beyerdynamic EDT 770 VB pads ... 
  hide details  
Reply
Computer
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 2500K / 4.5Ghz / 1.368v / 212 EVO+ ASUS P8Z77-V LK EVGA Geforce GTX 680 / 2GB / 1228MHz / 3479MHz Kingston HyperX Blu Black / 1600Mhz / 8GB (2x4GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOS
OCZ Vertex 4 / SSD / 128GB Seagate ST500413AS / HDD / SATA / 500GB Seagate ST1000DM003 / HDD / SATA / 1000GB Windows 8.1 Pro / 64Bit / Full 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Samsung S23A700D / 120Hz / 23" Dell 2312HM / IPS / 23" LG IPS231 / IPS / 23" CMStorm Quick Fire Rapid 
PowerMouseMouse PadAudio
Seasonic X760 / 80 Plus Gold Zowie AM SteelSeries NP+ M-Audio Q40 with Beyerdynamic EDT 770 VB pads ... 
  hide details  
Reply
post #36 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIDWULF View Post

I love the notion of free will and I believe everything can be explained by a physical process...even our consciousness.

Were just not there yet! And if it's "Magic" then we can explain that too! Everything is magic until you can explain the process.

Free will, huh?

Consider 2 universes, universe A and universe B.

In both universes, everything is identical, qualitatively and quantitatively. Every atom, every photon, motion, distribution of matter, etc. all in the same position and doing the same thing in both universes. As is time.

In universe A, it is January 1st 2014 on planet Earth.

In universe B, it is January 1st 2014 on planet Earth.

In universe A, Jimmy eats chips on January 1st 2014 for breakfast.

In universe B, Jimmy decides to eat a can of spam instead. Wait, how? He couldn't have. Everything is identical in both universes. So he physically can't exercise free will at all. He is subject to his genes, upbringing, cognitions, the motion of atoms -> chemistry -> brain biology.

How can you use this 'free will' to manipulate anything? Your behavior is subject to desire. You act based on needs and wants (needs are wants too, IMO, but that's for another day).

Everything was pre-determined by the big bang. The distribution of matter due to the big bang occurred. Motion at the molecular level followed, gravity and random motion pulled molecules together, chemical and biological processes followed this. And none of them could have occurred in the same way, nothing in the universe would be the same if just 1 atom was in a slightly different position, could it? In other words, the big bang determined everything.

TL;DR free will is incompatible with logic.
Edited by Edge Of Pain - 1/30/13 at 2:28pm
Servant of Sigmar
(11 items)
 
RedHax0r V2
(11 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-7700K Gigabyte GA-Z270-HD3P Zotac GeForce GTX 1070 AMP Extreme 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3000MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
120GB Sandisk SSD 240GB ADATA SSD Samsung Be Quiet! Pure Rock Slim 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 64 Bit Seasonic 520W Non-modular Aerocool Aero 800 white 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
R5 1500X Asus Prime B350 Plus Sapphire RX 480 Kingston HyperX Fury 16GB DDR4 2400MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
120GB Sandisk SSD 1TB WD Blue Yes AMD Wraith Spire 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 64 Bit Corsair CS430 Antec VSK 4000B 
  hide details  
Reply
Servant of Sigmar
(11 items)
 
RedHax0r V2
(11 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-7700K Gigabyte GA-Z270-HD3P Zotac GeForce GTX 1070 AMP Extreme 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3000MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
120GB Sandisk SSD 240GB ADATA SSD Samsung Be Quiet! Pure Rock Slim 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 64 Bit Seasonic 520W Non-modular Aerocool Aero 800 white 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
R5 1500X Asus Prime B350 Plus Sapphire RX 480 Kingston HyperX Fury 16GB DDR4 2400MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
120GB Sandisk SSD 1TB WD Blue Yes AMD Wraith Spire 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 64 Bit Corsair CS430 Antec VSK 4000B 
  hide details  
Reply
post #37 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Of Pain View Post

Free will, huh?

Consider 2 universes, universe A and universe B.

In both universes, everything is identical, qualitatively and quantitatively. Every atom, every photon, motion, distribution of matter, etc. all in the same position and doing the same thing in both universes. As is time.

In universe A, it is January 1st 2014 on planet Earth.

In universe B, it is January 1st 2014 on planet Earth.

In universe A, Jimmy eats chips on January 1st 2014 for breakfast.

In universe B, Jimmy decides to eat a can of spam instead. Wait, how? He couldn't have. Everything is identical in both universes. So he physically can't exercise free will at all. He is subject to his genes, upbringing, cognitions, the motion of atoms -> chemistry -> brain biology.

How can you use this 'free will' to manipulate anything? Your behavior is subject to desire. You act based on needs and wants (needs are wants too, IMO, but that's for another day).

Everything was pre-determined by the big bang. The distribution of matter due to the big bang occurred. Motion at the molecular level followed, gravity and random motion pulled molecules together, chemical and biological processes followed this. And none of them could have occurred in the same way, nothing in the universe would be the same if just 1 atom was in a slightly different position, could it? In other words, the big bang determined everything.

TL;DR free will is incompatible with logic.

There is only response to this...


doh.gif
First Time Build
(20 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i7 920 MSI X58 Pro-E (MS-7522) EVGA GeForce GTX 460 EVGA GeForce GTX 460 
GraphicsRAMRAMRAM
Galaxy GeForce GTX 460 Corsair  Corsair  Corsair  
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 Sony DVD+-RW Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 64bit 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
Acer P215H Acer P221W Dynex Silverstone OP1000-E 1kW PSU 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Cooler Master HAF 932 Dynex Dynex ASUS Xonar DG 
  hide details  
Reply
First Time Build
(20 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i7 920 MSI X58 Pro-E (MS-7522) EVGA GeForce GTX 460 EVGA GeForce GTX 460 
GraphicsRAMRAMRAM
Galaxy GeForce GTX 460 Corsair  Corsair  Corsair  
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 Sony DVD+-RW Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 64bit 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
Acer P215H Acer P221W Dynex Silverstone OP1000-E 1kW PSU 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Cooler Master HAF 932 Dynex Dynex ASUS Xonar DG 
  hide details  
Reply
post #38 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Of Pain View Post

Free will, huh?

Consider 2 universes, universe A and universe B.

In both universes, everything is identical, qualitatively and quantitatively. Every atom, every photon, motion, distribution of matter, etc. all in the same position and doing the same thing in both universes. As is time.

In universe A, it is January 1st 2014 on planet Earth.

In universe B, it is January 1st 2014 on planet Earth.

In universe A, Jimmy eats chips on January 1st 2014 for breakfast.

In universe B, Jimmy decides to eat a can of spam instead. Wait, how? He couldn't have. Everything is identical in both universes. So he physically can't exercise free will at all. He is subject to his genes, upbringing, cognitions, the motion of atoms -> chemistry -> brain biology.

How can you use this 'free will' to manipulate anything? Your behavior is subject to desire. You act based on needs and wants (needs are wants too, IMO, but that's for another day).

Everything was pre-determined by the big bang. The distribution of matter due to the big bang occurred. Motion at the molecular level followed, gravity and random motion pulled molecules together, chemical and biological processes followed this. And none of them could have occurred in the same way, nothing in the universe would be the same if just 1 atom was in a slightly different position, could it? In other words, the big bang determined everything.

TL;DR free will is incompatible with logic.

Pre-determined is such a strong word.
Most of what we see is derived from enthropy, enthropy we can expect and enthropy from phenomenas we have yet to fully understand. Then you have the Branes, Super strings and all kinds of postulated theories. SInce the universe has an immense scale, not infinite but immense we are bound to see some repetition somewhere, changing one atom wouldn't necessarily mean that everything was drastically altered, just that Jimmy got Botulism from his spam.

OT, More cores Higher Ghz (serious more everything now and forever, more! more! more! (this is good news) more!)
 
Rebeccas Dator
(14 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
I5 2500K Asus P8P67 Pro  6950 DCII G.skill 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Intel 330 Seagate Barracuda WD Green OCZ Vertex 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
H212 W7 21.5 Sidewinder x4/Lenovo with Trackpoint 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec 900w Define r2 MX518 Qpad 1.5mm 
Audio
Edifier R1900TII 2.0 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
II X4 965 Gigabyte GA-MA785GMT-UD2H Sapphire 5770 DDR3 1600mhz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
2x 500gb DVD H212 windows 7 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
3x Benq 21.5 inch X4 chieftec 650w Define mini 
Mouse
mx518 
  hide details  
Reply
 
Rebeccas Dator
(14 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
I5 2500K Asus P8P67 Pro  6950 DCII G.skill 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Intel 330 Seagate Barracuda WD Green OCZ Vertex 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
H212 W7 21.5 Sidewinder x4/Lenovo with Trackpoint 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec 900w Define r2 MX518 Qpad 1.5mm 
Audio
Edifier R1900TII 2.0 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
II X4 965 Gigabyte GA-MA785GMT-UD2H Sapphire 5770 DDR3 1600mhz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
2x 500gb DVD H212 windows 7 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
3x Benq 21.5 inch X4 chieftec 650w Define mini 
Mouse
mx518 
  hide details  
Reply
post #39 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omicron View Post

I could find nothing in the article regarding the accuracy as to how the simulation will be conducted (neuron interaction, hormone effects), but one has to question if this could result in something conscious and sentient. It is definitely a philosophical/religious argument to determine if something is conscious, but this could raise ethical concerns if this simulation does breach that barrier.

But, interesting project nonetheless. I'll look forward to whatever medical advances they get from it.

The Human Brain Project is directly related to the EPFL's Blue Brain Project. (http://bluebrain.epfl.ch/) The Blue Brain project is as much a biomedical neuroscience lab as it is a computational neuroscience lab. They have automated robots that work 24/7, conducting experiments that analyze brain tissue. Their goal is to be as biologically accurate as possible in their simulations, including all biological mechanisms involved by a neuron, not just integrating a collection of inputs. So, one would presume this involves computing pre-synaptic-to-post-synaptic interactions, various probablistic models of neurotransmitter interactions, cell channel ionic flux, opening and closing gates, varying potential depending on area of neuron, etc. etc. etc. etc.

There is so much going on in a neuron, which is why Blue Brain's simulations currently require a whole CPU's worth of computing power to model just a single neuron. You do the math and that's 100 billion cores = 1 trillion dollars at current prices. So while a 1 billion euro investment will certainly go a long way, I don't think anyone should expect them to fully simulate an entire brain for a while yet (at least enough time for me to finish a phd on the topic tongue.gif ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoball View Post

Technically it is a bunch or neurons that either fire or do not isn't it? 0s and 1s.

-I have absolutely no knowledge of bio or whatever field that claim would resemble. I just made the bit up.-

Yes and no. wink.gif A neuron's information is not encoded in action potential amplitude (because it's all or nothing, like a 0 or 1) but rather through frequency and pattern.
Edited by flamingoyster - 1/30/13 at 3:17pm
Peaches
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 Foxconn Blood Rage Sapphire Radeon HD4890 OCZ Gold 6 GB DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
64GB C300 boot, 1TB storage (2 WD Caviar Blues ... Samsung Blu-Ray reader Prolimatech Megahalems Windows 7 Professional 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Acer 1920x1200 Filco Majestouch Cherry MX Blues Corsair 850HX Corsair Obsidian 800D 
MouseMouse PadAudio
Razer DeathAdder Black PureTrak Talent ASUS Xonar Essence ST --> Sennheiser HD600 
  hide details  
Reply
Peaches
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 Foxconn Blood Rage Sapphire Radeon HD4890 OCZ Gold 6 GB DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
64GB C300 boot, 1TB storage (2 WD Caviar Blues ... Samsung Blu-Ray reader Prolimatech Megahalems Windows 7 Professional 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Acer 1920x1200 Filco Majestouch Cherry MX Blues Corsair 850HX Corsair Obsidian 800D 
MouseMouse PadAudio
Razer DeathAdder Black PureTrak Talent ASUS Xonar Essence ST --> Sennheiser HD600 
  hide details  
Reply
post #40 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Of Pain View Post

TL;DR free will is incompatible with logic.

And that's pretty much it. It comes down to the personal question of whether there is a outside force which can contribute free will, or whether everything occurs exactly to physical processes.

You're correct, and everyone else in this thread is correct as well. As far as we know, there is no right answer. We may never know. Either:

1. Consciousness is a mechanical process and emulation can create it, so this computer could have it. Aka, no free will.
2. Consciousness is an external process and no simple mechanical process can create it, so this probably will not have it. Aka, free will.

There may be a correct choice to the above, but that all comes down to personal belief.

Other mechanics may have some other part to play in this, such as the world of quantum physics. But, who knows at this point.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Technology and Science News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [Y!] Billion Euro supercomputer to 'simulate entire human brain'