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[Y!] Billion Euro supercomputer to 'simulate entire human brain' - Page 5

post #41 of 93
Anyone who thinks that three pounds of fatty mush in their skull, as it is now, will never be outdone by an artificial computer, in every conceivable way, is an arrogant, short-sighted, fool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W4nderer View Post

It can never be truly conscious. Through very complex and intricate algorithms that are backed by a massive amount of computational power, it may be possible to simulate consciousness, but at the end of that day, it will be just that. Algorithms, developed by humans.

If it can do what our brains do, it is conscious; our consciousness is nothing but the very physical interactions within a very physical, and very finite, object.

Doesn't matter who or what developed it. Eventually we will be able to understand, recreated, and improve upon the human brain, and that understanding won't detract from it's power.

If it cannot do what our brains do, then it is not a complete simulation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post

A writer once said “if our brains were simple enough to be understood, we wouldn't be smart enough to understand them.”

He was wrong.

Not to say that I think any individual person will have complete understanding of any whole brain equivalent to their own, but we will understand the brain quite completely, sooner or later.

No single person could possibly fully know and understand, in detail, exactly how that CPU in your sig system works (there is no one on this planet that could draw the complete layout of a 2500k from memory, no matter how much time they are given), but that doesn't mean there are not groups with that collective knowledge and a very firm understanding of it.
Edited by Blameless - 1/30/13 at 4:05pm
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post #42 of 93
Talking "string theories" is the same as talking about "God".
A concept that is A) intangible unimaginable etc, B) imposingly unifies everything, C) is capable to explain everything, D) originates everything ..... N) blah blah

All premises fall because of A. The rest don't matter. If it is "out of this world", it just doesn't exist for us/our world etc.

Now, back to the 1st true ENIAC (mimicking the greek word for concept / meaning -> thought) vs. super-calculator topic...

Unlike God, our brain is something that appears to be material, and probably tangible, thus the computer singularity might be the most probable way of us achieving super-intelligence within a short time-frame. It might not be 100% electronic, who knows. If the human brain is indeed so powerful as we want to think, then maybe we just need to find the protocols to actually use it to its full potential.

The "it will never have a soul" or "be as pretty as I am-cause-I-am-so-f-in-special" are falling either in the complete BS or complete self-absorbed categories. Take your pick. Surely those who claim such did not think hard enough, so if we are going the opposite direction we might we are doing already better!

It will be the 1st "God" we've build and can actually talk back. I just hope it doesn't say "the answer is 42" and then stop answering us.

I doubt that we will "touch" it within 10years, but any start is a good start.
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post #43 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huzzbutt View Post

Pre-determined is such a strong word.
Most of what we see is derived from enthropy, enthropy we can expect and enthropy from phenomenas we have yet to fully understand. Then you have the Branes, Super strings and all kinds of postulated theories. SInce the universe has an immense scale, not infinite but immense we are bound to see some repetition somewhere, changing one atom wouldn't necessarily mean that everything was drastically altered, just that Jimmy got Botulism from his spam.

OT, More cores Higher Ghz (serious more everything now and forever, more! more! more! (this is good news) more!)
Pre-determined just isn't the right word. It insinuates that the future is already decided by a being of sentience, while what he's trying to say is that it's more of an unstoppable motion.

Consider how much we've discovered, and proven, using the laws of physics -- the universal language to decrypt and predict what happens and will happen in this universe. It's nearly undeniable that everything is governed by some mathematical certainty; don't you think it's arrogant to think our "free will" is the exception to that? It seems more likely that all things, ourselves included, are just the result of a set of circumstances within a set of rules -- physics. Consciousness, while being a preferable perception of all this, can't exist if you believe in the scientific understanding of the universe. It's more like you're a witness to your existence, than a governor.
With that perspective, it's easier to see lesser or different types of "conscious minds" as valid. Human's only put value in other forms of sentience via empathy, usually, so it's natural to dismiss a "mind" created by us as invalid. Still, the validity of one's existence can only truly be known to themselves'.
Edited by Mookster - 1/30/13 at 3:55pm
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post #44 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

Pre-determined just isn't the right word. It insinuates that the future is already decided by a being of sentience, while what he's trying to say is that it's more of an unstoppable motion.

Consider how much we've discovered, and proven, using the laws of physics -- the universal language to decrypt and predict what happens and will happen in this universe. It's nearly undeniable that everything is governed by some mathematical certainty; don't you think it's arrogant to think our "free will" is the exception to that? It seems more likely that all things, ourselves included, are just the result of a set of circumstances within a set of rules -- physics. Consciousness, while being a preferable perception of all this, can't exist if you believe in the scientific understanding of the universe. It's more like you're a witness to your existence, than a governor.
With that perspective, it's easier to see lesser or different types of "conscious minds" as valid. Human's only put value in other forms of sentience via empathy, usually, so it's natural to dismiss a "mind" created by us as invalid. Still, the validity of one's existence can only truly be known to themselves'.

Well, there are ppl who will read that and most likely say:

"this cannot be true, cause god gave us free will, its in the book" - ofc my true and only book - how fortunate am I to be his favorite and choose correctly despite being able to choose whatever from an infinite amount of choices.

"if it is true then that mathematical certainty is certainly god" - ofc my true and only God, the mathematician that made the laws for the big bang to lead us here etc, and the rest of the religious denominations that think differently are fulled, but me? never

....

The fact that we are trying to simulate our brain is AMAZING.

We are not trying to "play god" anymore than we ALWAYS DID.

God is a manmade concept, reflects what some of us are and want us to be. If humanity needs a carrpt on a stick to chase moving on, it is fine with me - guess what, usually people are insulted to be treated and thought of as donkeys.
The ancient religion carrot is rotten cause...well...it is ancient.
If it takes a multi-billion machine to push us further, we should "buy" it. Either-way should strive to have some PROGRESS.
(and ofc the donkeys will pay/carry it on their back etc - we cannot all drive, sorry).

Some scientists speak with religious certainty about stuff they cannot possibly know to their full extend. Ancient religions do exactly the same, but are a couple of thousand years OUTDATED. Thing is, when scientists get dis-proven, they usually accept it and move forward (or the community does).

It is like software hardware...sometimes we know it is not the perfect solution, but it works. Waiting for the perfect to happen never gets things DONE.
....

The question with this "Brainiac" is - will it play us (humanity) in CRYSIS? tongue.gif
Cause obviously, most of the human brains are egocentric dou_bags that are never wrong...
Edited by pcfoo - 1/30/13 at 6:17pm
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post #45 of 93
Really interested to see how this plays out. Would it one day become aware of what it really is? A man-made, pre-programmed machine. How would it feel about that? Can it even feel in the first place?

If someone proves it wrong, will it have a BSOD or will insult their mother?
   
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post #46 of 93
I think a lot of people miss the point when creating something like this, our any new technology for that matter. Scientists, researchers, and engineers don't need to fully understand something in nature to recreate it. If they can replicate a core principal in it's construction, or implementation, it then only becomes a matter of repeating that pattern and letting the principals of exponential progress take over for the rest of it's construction. If IBM can simulate 1% of the human brain then now, then recreating that 1% will only take that time / (moores law) essentially and shorten by a factor of two for the next 4% and so and so forth. Which going by that rule of thumb a entire human brain is simulated by 2025.

It an amazing time to be alive.
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post #47 of 93
Why would you want to emulate something with so many flaws.

Most humans cause them self pain and crave over lust and other things based around the senses I don't see much of a point in recreating a human brain.

I also don't see this being possible because the brain changes from second to second and grows in different ways depending on how you use it I don't see this being possible with a hunk of metal and chips.

If anything I see this as being a souped up robot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfroth View Post

I think a lot of people miss the point when creating something like this, our any new technology for that matter. Scientists, researchers, and engineers don't need to fully understand something in nature to recreate it. If they can replicate a core principal in it's construction, or implementation, it then only becomes a matter of repeating that pattern and letting the principals of exponential progress take over for the rest of it's construction. If IBM can simulate 1% of the human brain then now, then recreating that 1% will only take that time / (moores law) essentially and shorten by a factor of two for the next 4% and so and so forth. Which going by that rule of thumb a entire human brain is simulated by 2025.

It an amazing time to be alive.

Even if they did manage to do this by 2025 whats so amazing about the average brain?

It is wasted with thoughts such as "I'm hungry", "When will I have the money to buy that?", it creates self narratives and so on honestly the human brain isn't so impressive when you get down to it all that it does is cling to a few senses and goes after them.
Edited by Mwarren - 1/30/13 at 7:19pm
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post #48 of 93
I really don't want to go on a tangent here, mostly because I am considered very "religious" (which is why I have to watch what I say here, so if you want to discuss this with me please send me an IM). I LOVE arguments

But what makes us think that we are not created?

These supercomputers must be programmed to simulate our brain, and while they may go through a "learning" process they still had an intelligent being programming them. There was no accident how these simulations appear.

/rant

This thread is going to be locked soon I know.
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post #49 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post

{snip} ... and so on honestly the human brain isn't so impressive when you get down to it all that it does is cling to a few senses and goes after them.

just...really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudbyday View Post

I really don't want to go on a tangent here, mostly because I am considered very "religious" (which is why I have to watch what I say here, so if you want to discuss this with me please send me an IM). I LOVE arguments

But what makes us think that we are not created?

These supercomputers must be programmed to simulate our brain, and while they may go through a "learning" process they still had an intelligent being programming them. There was no accident how these simulations appear.

/rant

This thread is going to be locked soon I know.

A religious person may argue that humans were programmed by God. smile.gif
Edited by flamingoyster - 1/30/13 at 7:27pm
Peaches
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Peaches
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post #50 of 93
it will going to be the future sky net.
he will bring terminator here to kill us all.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [Y!] Billion Euro supercomputer to 'simulate entire human brain'