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[OCLab] The first results of Haswell processor in popular applications - Page 11

post #101 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

How do you know that they got this engineering sample From Intel and not some source in China that obtained this a long time ago?

If it's a real Haswell, it's ultimately from Intel. How it got to them is irrelevant. China isn't making counterfeit Haswells to fool PC enthusiasts.

The originally posted results were not far from what I have personally seen from more credible sources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

I didn`t know LGA-1150 was available now....

This almost sounds like you are impling that because something isn't ready for retail yet, that it must not exist.

It's obviously a validation/test board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

Production of the final revision ie the one we get to buy started weeks ago. Engineering samples was made many months ago, maybe even a year wink.gif

How many times do you see differences in performance from even the earliest packaged ES chips to final revisions?

SB-E wasn't released until the C1 revision (which began production months before release), but much earlier C0 rev ES parts perform virtually identically, clock-for-clock, to both C1 and C2 revision parts. Likewise, prior chips often had several pre-release steppings, which almost always performed exactly the same as the release parts.

It's very rare for ES chips not to be representative of final parts in performance, for obvious reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

Here, a reply from Intel themselves, to completely bust the BS "test" done by OCLab. Like I said earlier, either a really old engineering sample or fake test to get clicks.

Pretty standard rumor control, and doesn't mean anything.

When the Haswell NDA goes down, it will become pretty obvious that Haswell only has barely more than a ~5% IPC overall advantage, outside of the currently non-existent apps that leverage TxT and AVX2.

How do I know this? Because there are a lot of Haswell parts, and a lot of LGA-1150 board out there now, and leaks do occasionally happen.
Edited by Blameless - 1/31/13 at 5:14pm
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post #102 of 164
@Blameless:
I feel like we are going in circles here. Engineering Samples might have gone through several revisions and steppings. How do you know that the ES OCLab is testing isn`t one with some possible underlying bugs? That perhaps was fixed with later steppings?
When was the last time you saw CPUs from two different architectures, where the first one beat the newest? The 3770K beat Haswell in SuperPi 1M.
Intel guy even says in twitter that no test the Ivy beat Haswell in their lab. Which is what anyone sane would think.

This whole test smell of a very early ES sample that is a bit from the final revision/stepping.
post #103 of 164
Why would they not provide either a back of the chip photo for that ES(since Haswell have a different pin-out), or a CPU-Z validation like the recent IB-E leak? Both could be easily obtained if they actually have the chip in hand, and both would boost their credbility without much work. Yet 4 days after the OP it is still missing?

Plus they deleted all their charts from the OP(which looks a lot shorter than it was when I first saw it), this just looks fishy overall.
Edited by sherlock - 1/31/13 at 5:56pm
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post #104 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

Here, a reply from Intel themselves, to completely bust the BS "test" done by OCLab. Like I said earlier, either a really old engineering sample or fake test to get clicks.
God I hate sites like that.
Damage control. I think AMD said the same thing about Bulldozer before mainstream results hit, and crashed/burned rolleyes.gif
    
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post #105 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by just_nuke_em View Post

Damage control. I think AMD said the same thing about Bulldozer before mainstream results hit, and crashed/burned rolleyes.gif

Mind answering why the leaker don't provide a back of the chip shot? A photo of the chip pin-out could easily distinguish Haswell from any other chip, if you go through all the work to bench it, why not take a conclusive photo?


Westmere,Sandy, Ivy from left to right(SB-E is right most), all look different(especially in the center), a Haswell photo like that would be strong evidence that they actually have Haswell.

or like these IB-E leakers, do a CPU-Z validation. Why go through all the work benching the chip without doing something so simple as showing proof that you have the chip?
Edited by sherlock - 1/31/13 at 6:03pm
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post #106 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

Mind answering why the leaker don't provide a back of the chip shot? A photo of the chip pin-out could easily distinguish Haswell from any other chip, if you go through all the work to bench it, why not take a conclusive photo?
Guess you don't understand the limited nature of NDA "leaks" wink.gif.

Mind answering why you are getting so worked up over ES test results that probably have very limited correlation between retail results due to immature tech? (mainly boards, bioses, microcode, ect) You guys are crazy. It's interesting rumors/news. No need to get your jimmies rustled wink.gif
    
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post #107 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by just_nuke_em View Post

Guess you don't understand the limited nature of NDA leaks

Mind answering why you are getting so worked up over ES test results that probably have very limited correlation between retail results due to immature tech? (mainly boards, bioses, microcode, ect) It's interesting rumors/news.

So you avoided my question, why don't you try answer them? Why would someone who actually have the ES and the boards not take photos of them and show them along with the benches or run a simple CPU-Z validation like this one? Why do so when something so simple as a back of the chip photo can be the definitive evidence?
Edited by sherlock - 1/31/13 at 6:13pm
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post #108 of 164
Because its a BS test

Here is from HWBot:
Quote:
Okay, got a few emails in. Apparently the Wprime would be somewhat correct, but both SuperPI's are completely off. Seems like François was right. Not sure what OCLab was upto ... just made up numbers to increase traffic?

Edited by Cloudfire777 - 1/31/13 at 6:12pm
post #109 of 164
As far as I know from the actual tester, OCLab's chip was a part of some sort of a press demonstration rig, hence they don't mention the motherboard maker (otherwise it would be possible to track the leak), don't have the pictures of the CPU (as that would involve taking the system apart) and consistency of SuperPi numbers on Windows 7 is very poor (compared to those of PiFast and wPrime).

For those who doubt the existence of Haswell ES/QS chips in the wild, you can buy one on the 'black market' since December. Prices range between 350 and 600 euros.
post #110 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

@Blameless:
I feel like we are going in circles here. Engineering Samples might have gone through several revisions and steppings. How do you know that the ES OCLab is testing isn`t one with some possible underlying bugs? That perhaps was fixed with later steppings?
When was the last time you saw CPUs from two different architectures, where the first one beat the newest? The 3770K beat Haswell in SuperPi 1M.
Intel guy even says in twitter that no test the Ivy beat Haswell in their lab. Which is what anyone sane would think.

This whole test smell of a very early ES sample that is a bit from the final revision/stepping.

Haswell won SuperPi in the other tests I've seen; I fully admit that the OCLabs results are an anomaly. However, it's also the least relevant of all tests done.

As for the cause, I still think it's much more likely to be some error in testing procedure, immature BIOS, or the specific memory settings used in this test (the OCLab test use by far the lowest clock speedss and slowest memory I've seen Haswell tested with), than the fault of the CPU they tested. User error is common, firmware issues are common, IPC influencing bugs in ES parts stable enough to be benched are not.

Francois is being almost uselessly (though understandably) vague in his comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

So you avoided my question, why don't you try answer them? Why would someone who actually have the ES and the boards not take photos of them and show them along with the benches or run a simple CPU-Z validation like this one? Why do so when something so simple as a back of the chip photo can be the definitive evidence?

Because they are usually more interested in not being fired or sued than proving anything, and these leaks are usually between individuals who do not intend to publish the results anywhere.

A few people have shared their Haswell results with me, and the data I've gotten has been very limited. I did not ask for confirmation on every point because they are mostly individuals I trust, and because they don't want to risk getting caught.

I could turn around and post a thread about it or write an article, and provide some screen shots/pictures, but since I am not in possession of a Haswell, and since none of my contacts would want to help me get themselves canned, I doubt I would have their further cooperation.

A similar origin is quite possible for this article.

Really, this is following the same pattern that every CPU release in the last 20 years has.

There are always leaks. Some portion of them are accurate, some are not, but by this time, the overall jist of the product to be released is known, and there are rarely surprises...except tp those who "wait for 'real' benchmarks".

There are still many unknowns about Haswell, but the room for plausible speculation shrinks every day. Long before there are any official reviews, everyone who has been paying attention will have a very good idea of what Haswell is capable of.
Edited by Blameless - 1/31/13 at 6:35pm
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