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[WCCF]NVIDIA GeForce Titan Is Not GTX 780 – Performance Surpasses GTX 690 - Page 23  

post #221 of 360
So People arguing GK104 High end vs Mid-range are actually debating:

GTX680(GK104)= High end Card, Performance matching 7970 on release , Nividia have no 6 series single GPU card with better performance.

vs

GK104= Mid range Chip,32 ROPS, 256 bit Bus & Die Size are all like Fermi Mid Range chip instead of Fermi Flagship chip.

No wonder this argument goes on and on in a circle with neither side understanding one word the other side says.
Edited by sherlock - 1/31/13 at 9:10pm
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post #222 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Its funny because none of you even understands what my point is. I understand that GK104 is comparable to GF104. But I do not agree that the performance of the GTX 680 is comparable to the GTX 460. To me the jump from the GTX 460 to the 580 will be similar to the jump between the 660Ti and the Titan. How is that wrong exactly?

It's wrong because you have nothing that you can base that assumption on. In order to know GK104 is more aggressively binned than GF104 you have to know the yields, how many GPUs are discarded for lower end ones etc. and you also have to know the performance of GK110 so you can compare how it performs compared to high end GPUs. Because you do not have the info the assumption is based on nothing at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

GK110 is the high-end of the next generation. The mid-range of that generation will probably be GK114.

Considering that there was no GK100 it is completely implausible to claim that GK104 is not "high-end"... there was nothing higher-end than GK104 at the time. You can call it gimped all you want, but don't act like there was ever any hope of a better chip being put into the 680.

GK110 is named GK110 because there was a GK100, it was just never released due to reasons none of us know. Most likely bad yields making it non profitable. However there definitely was one, I can't see anyone denying that NV has designed GK100/110 at the same time as GK104 (they do need a GPGPU chip) and most definitely at least tried to produce it to see if they could make money off it.

Because we don't know what happened to GK100 it's also pretty weird to assume that it never had any chance at all. The same could have been true for fermi if cypress hadn't performed so well and released so early. NV has sold similarly sized dies at bad yields before, if they needed to they might have used it, however we have no info, so I won't say it could have been used but I also wont say that it was impossible to use.

Then there's all the proof about the 680 being released as a 670Ti but I wont go into that.
Quote:
I'd also like to point out that AMD has been using small dies for ages... does that mean that AMD doesn't release high-end GPUs? Is the 7970 mid-range because it doesn't have a 550mm^2 die? Nope, that's the biggest and fastest AMD makes em. Same goes for NVIDIA this generation.

Mid range relative to NV's lineup and strategy, which they clearly have not abandoned. You might have a point if GK104 was also a fully fledged GPGPU chip etc. 7970 relative to AMDs other GPUs is high end.
 
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post #223 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by m3t4lh34d View Post

It varies by week, as I'm in online advertising, but a good week is around 25k. But as with anything, there are bad weeks (~5k/week). However I really only indulge myself with PC parts and building more systems than I need, so I feel I can splurge in that area.

I'm getting into online advertising now. One step at a time of course, but your numbers are encouraging. thumb.gif
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post #224 of 360
just a question since this discussion about GK104 being mid-range or high-end constantly pops up. What's the point?

When it comes to the consumer the 680 was Nvidias high end card this generation for whatever reason, nothing else really matters.
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post #225 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChaos View Post

just a question since this discussion about GK104 being mid-range or high-end constantly pops up. What's the point?

When it comes to the consumer the 680 was Nvidias high end card this generation for whatever reason, nothing else really matters.

By that logic only performance and price matter, the tech behind those has no meaning. For some people that's actually true but on OCN people like to talk about tech.
 
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post #226 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

GK110 is named GK110 because there was a GK100, it was just never released due to reasons none of us know. Most likely bad yields making it non profitable. However there definitely was one, I can't see anyone denying that NV has designed GK100/110 at the same time as GK104 (they do need a GPGPU chip) and most definitely at least tried to produce it to see if they could make money off it.

Because we don't know what happened to GK100 it's also pretty weird to assume that it never had any chance at all. The same could have been true for fermi if cypress hadn't performed so well and released so early. NV has sold similarly sized dies at bad yields before, if they needed to they might have used it, however we have no info, so I won't say it could have been used but I also wont say that it was impossible to use.

Then there's all the proof about the 680 being released as a 670Ti but I wont go into that.

Mid range relative to NV's lineup and strategy, which they clearly have not abandoned. You might have a point if GK104 was also a fully fledged GPGPU chip etc. 7970 relative to AMDs other GPUs is high end.

I'm not denying that they tried to make a GK100... but its lack of mention shows that it was most likely a failure.

And I'm sure the Fermi situation was so great for NVIDIA; they'd love to go through that again.

Standard reasoning says that the burden of proof is upon those making the claim... and the claim that there was anything higher-end than GK104 that NVIDIA could have released but decided not to has no proof to back it up. Trends may tell us that there should have been a GK100, but there's no proof that it passed evaluation. GK104 may fit the characteristics of a mid-range chip, but that does not mean there was anything better. And if there's nothing better, then it's high-end. Simple as that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChaos View Post

just a question since this discussion about GK104 being mid-range or high-end constantly pops up. What's the point?

When it comes to the consumer the 680 was Nvidias high end card this generation for whatever reason, nothing else really matters.

Some argue for the hell of it. Some talk about the specifications of the chip but stray away from saying that there was anything better for them to release, often just talking about "maybes". Many argue because it makes them feel better that NVIDIA only released a "mid-range" chip this generation... this generation being the first one since the days of the X1900XT in which they did not grasp the performance crown.
Edited by Usario - 1/31/13 at 9:29pm
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post #227 of 360
@Alatar

yeah I understand that but shouldn't we be talking real tech that was actually usable and not theoretical tech when we're trying to make a point. For whatever reason Nvidia released no better than the 680 this generation. I'd bet some real money that the reason for that wasn't because "it could compete with AMDs best so there was no need"

I'm just trying to grasp what the point of it all is. Are we attempting to show that Nvidia was/is ahead of the game? Are we trying to say that Nvidias mid-range is as good as AMD's high end?

It just seems like a petty stupid argument when it comes down to it.

I'd understand if it was just a discussion but it's being used as a way of showing one company is superior to the other.
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post #228 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

I guess your point is that it sold as a 680 for highend prices, it's therefore NVIDIA's "highend" makes sense. However, just because NVIDIA slapped a 680 label on a GK104 chip and clocked it as high as they could, doesn't magically make it NVIDIA's high end chip. Make sense?

Repeat after me:

GK104 / 114 = Mid-Range CHIP
GK110 = High End CHIP

If you haven't figured out, I am talking about the CHIP, and so is everyone else.
That makes sense. thumb.gif

Who gives a dam what Nvidia in capable. What matters is GTX680 was prices as a high end card. Release the GK110 for $500 and will be talking. Codenamed mean nothing. GK110 is not even out and even if it is its 1 year after GTX680. AMD could have released the say HD 7970 was their mid range CHIP and HD 8970 is their high end but not ready. It Time/ performance.
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post #229 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

I'm not denying that they tried to make a GK100... but its lack of mention shows that it was most likely a failure.

And I'm sure the Fermi situation was so great for NVIDIA; they'd love to go through that again.

Standard reasoning says that the burden of proof is upon those making the claim... and the claim that there was anything higher-end than GK104 that NVIDIA could have released but decided not to has no proof to back it up. GK104 may fit the characteristics of a mid-range chip, but that does not mean there was anything better. And if there's nothing better, then it's high-end. Simple as that.

I never said the fermi situation was great tongue.gif Just that NV might do it again if they needed to.

Assuming there was no GK100 is a bit like assuming intel never had any chips based on larrabee, etc. until they actually released Xeon Phi. Yes, we don't have the proper proof but do you really believe they didn't produce some of them to test if it could be profitable? Cmon now, even the name GK110 is a dead giveaway, pretty much all I need in fact. The lack of it appearing officially means that it was never sold, I wont make any further assumptions since I have no info. The chip being sold or not is not relevant because the whole discussion is about stuff that doesn't concern consumers, stuff like manufacturing costs, code names etc.

And in the end none of that really matters, as you said GK104 has all the characteristics of a mid range chip, that's the entire point. And we now have a chip with high end specs coming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChaos View Post

@Alatar

yeah I understand that but shouldn't we be talking real tech that was actually usable and not theoretical tech when we're trying to make a point. For whatever reason Nvidia released no better than the 680 this generation. I'd bet some real money that the reason for that wasn't because "it could compete with AMDs best so there was no need"

I'm just trying to grasp what the point of it all is. Are we attempting to show that Nvidia was/is ahead of the game? Are we trying to say that Nvidias mid-range is as good as AMD's high end?

It just seems like a petty stupid argument when it comes down to it.

I'd understand if it was just a discussion but it's being used as a way of showing one company is superior to the other.

The point of talking about "theoretical tech" is that it's interesting. Why do we always go through rumors, specs, leaks etc. before CPU/GPU releases? All hardware is unusable/theoretical at some point and we still like to talk about it.

About NV or AMD being ahead; I actually do hold the opinion that NV made a huge jump this gen tech wise due to improving their performance by a big margin and decreasing the die size from 550mm^2 to 294mm^2. That's a huge improvement.
Edited by Alatar - 1/31/13 at 9:41pm
 
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post #230 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I never said the fermi situation was great tongue.gif Just that NV might do it again if they needed to.

Assuming there was no GK100 is a bit like assuming intel never had any chips based on larrabee, etc. until they actually released Xeon Phi. Yes, we don't have the proper proof but do you really believe they didn't produce some of them to test if it could be profitable? Cmon now, even the name GK110 is a dead giveaway, pretty much all I need in fact. The lack of it appearing officially means that it was never sold, I wont make any further assumptions since I have no info. The chip being sold or not is not relevant because the whole discussion is about stuff that doesn't concern consumers, stuff like manufacturing costs, code names etc.

And in the end none of that really matters, as you said GK104 has all the characteristics of a mid range chip, that's the entire point. And we now have a chip with high end specs coming.

Again, I never said that it wasn't developed and I never said that it didn't exist at all. It wasn't fit for release, for reasons unbeknownst to us.

I'm not arguing that GK104 doesn't have the characteristics of a mid-range chip from NVIDIA. It does. But the chip itself is the high-end for its generation and people need to stop acting as if NVIDIA could have released GK100 without losing money, starting housefires, or encountering some other problems that became the reasons why it was never released.

And it's quite laughable when some try to act as if GK110 is part of the same generation as GK104.
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