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[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 13

post #121 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post

Yes I agree. But why do you need to resell with their service? Why does the game have to be tied to their service? Why does a game have to be tied to any service? Open your eyes man. Idealy you would be able to buy a digital copy like you would a hard copy from a digital store. Then just resell the copy as you wish. Why does a game need to be tied to Steam? Steam ties the game to their service. So does origin or Uplay. This is only going to grow worse and worse. WHY? becuase we continue to buy the freaking games and make them money. As Karl Marx used to say...we are useful idiots! We allow our rights to be broken for the convenience of something we want. It's stupid. Now someone finally wants to set this straight and says "Hey that's not right. Digital copies are the property of the person who bought them...I want to fight for their rights as consumers" and people are up in arms because they think they will lose the convenience.

Here's where it would work. Sell both DRM copies (i.e. Steampowered games) and sell completely DRM free games. Any game purchased DRM free would be sold (most likely) full price and could be re-sold as the consumer sees fit. Meanwhile people who do not care for re-selling could continue to use steam and purchase games on steam sales and give up their right to re-sell there game and knowing very well what they signed up for.

This is in a perfect world. Sadly I don't think this one lawsuit does anything but hurt. A complete overhaul of digital distribution would help though.
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post #122 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post

Yes I agree. But why do you need to resell with their service? Why does the game have to be tied to their service? Why does a game have to be tied to any service? Open your eyes man. Idealy you would be able to buy a digital copy like you would a hard copy from a digital store. Then just resell the copy as you wish. Why does a game need to be tied to Steam? Steam ties the game to their service. So does origin or Uplay. This is only going to grow worse and worse. WHY? becuase we continue to buy the freaking games and make them money. As Karl Marx used to say...we are useful idiots! We allow our rights to be broken for the convenience of something we want. It's stupid. Now someone finally wants to set this straight and says "Hey that's not right. Digital copies are the property of the person who bought them...I want to fight for their rights as consumers" and people are up in arms because they think they will lose the convenience.

Don't like their service, then choose a different service. If you buy a game tied to the Steam service and Steams way of DRM ( complain to the publishers at that point, not Steam/Valve ) then you are essentially in a contract with them. I much prefer Steam to Origin, so I use Steam for everything I want, if it's Origin exclusive then I simply won't buy it.

People need to not confuse rights with privileges, a big thing that seems to be common these days.


But as I said, if you don't like DRM then don't yell at Valve/Steam, yell at the publishers that provide Valve/Steam the permission to sell games and take a cut of all sales.
post #123 of 503
So because of this case, Valve is being unfairly forced into investing a lot of money into making a digital copy of a video game re-sellable. Now, if they're just being sued to make -THEIR- games resellable, then that's understandable. But it's unfair to try and force them to make all steam-purchasable games re-sellable. This lawsuit has the potential to literally kill a lot of content that steam offers to Germany/EU. If valve can't get the other parties who's games are available through steam to agree to put the game into a resellable format, it'd be a heck of a lot easier to say "F you germany, how about we just cancel service."

Depends a lot on just how much responsibility they are trying to push on valve. Basically, they have to shell out money for this lawsuit and then shell out money to continue in that market.
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post #124 of 503
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Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

Cuz used car sales killed the auto industry right? And used homes caused the bubble to burst in real estate right? Used bicycles killed the cycling industry right? Craigslist omg, what now?

Car sales and home sales are not analogous to gaming/software sales. They have completely different business models. You old home and old car can crap out, your old digital game is just as good as the day it was purchased and is primarily based on selling the license to play the game rather than the actual physical product.
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post #125 of 503
This is a very dangerous path for Germany to be walking. The ramifications of a decision to allow players to "resell" their games will mean dire consequences for consumers.

  • First, there will be court costs. That will dip into profits, so operating costs will go up. Guess who that's passed on to?
  • Second, everything in Steam's library is license-based (as is virtually anything in the software world), where the creator of the software owns it and Steam is selling you a license to use it. For anyone (including a governing body) to believe that they own something that is intellectual property that they didn't create is foolish. That reason, alone, gives Valve the right to counter sue any governing body that wishes to pursue this course of action.
  • Third, by achieving a victory here, it will cause piracy and abuses of the system to skyrocket. Piracy will become more rampant because the definition of physical goods and intellectual property will be skewed (intellectual property being sold as physical goods). Therefore, people will be able to get away with more illegal activities when it comes to software acquisition based on a "gray area" in the law. DRM will be powerless to stop this.
  • Fourth, developers will make less money. Less money means less projects, less projects means less creativity, and so on. It's a dangerous snow-ball effect.
  • Fifth, scamming using a resale system will become rampant.
  • Sixth, people will attempt to push that they can "sell" their Steam account, which means that a price will have to be assigned to a set of data. That presents a massive problem because no one will want to buy anything new when they can get the same "product" at a lower price.
  • Seventh, digital media does not degrade in performance on its own over time. Software may become outdated, but it is the same as the day it was released UNLESS the software company that owns the intellectual rights makes an update. Because of this, it is reasonable to believe that the value does not degrade either unless the software itself has become outdated. So what sort of price do you assign to intellectual property?
  • Eighth, the consumer is owed NOTHING for intellectual property that is not theirs. The license is worthless without intellectual rights, which is assigned to one person and one person only. It will be akin to selling a video card second hand and it not coming with a warranty... this means that the software will be sold AS IS with no additional updates being required. Again, that's a dangerous prospect.


I'm sure I will think of more, but you get the point. There are so many negatives to this that the positives are completely diminished. With any luck, more people will realize that selling something that is not "physical goods" is a bad idea, no matter how you spin it.
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post #126 of 503
PC gaming is more than big enough to survive without people siding with corporations and less consumer rights.

Valve isn't something that needs protection, it's a big company, a company that wishes to maximize profits. It's a good thing that European countries are knocking some sense into the whole gaming industry.
 
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post #127 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Don't like their service, then choose a different service. If you buy a game tied to the Steam service and Steams way of DRM ( complain to the publishers at that point, not Steam/Valve ) then you are essentially in a contract with them. I much prefer Steam to Origin, so I use Steam for everything I want, if it's Origin exclusive then I simply won't buy it.

People need to not confuse rights with privileges, a big thing that seems to be common these days.


But as I said, if you don't like DRM then don't yell at Valve/Steam, yell at the publishers that provide Valve/Steam the permission to sell games and take a cut of all sales.

It is a right not a privilege to sell your stuff. There have been many court cases surrounding whether digital lisencing violates this RIGHT. but unfortunaltey nothing big enough to change the lisencing industry yet. The way you guys are talking you would do away with the whole First Sale Doctine.
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post #128 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

This is a very dangerous path for Germany to be walking. The ramifications of a decision to allow players to "resell" their games will mean dire consequences for consumers.

  • First, there will be court costs. That will dip into profits, so operating costs will go up. Guess who that's passed on to?
  • Second, everything in Steam's library is license-based (as is virtually anything in the software world), where the creator of the software owns it and Steam is selling you a license to use it. For anyone (including a governing body) to believe that they own something that is intellectual property that they didn't create is foolish. That reason, alone, gives Valve the right to counter sue any governing body that wishes to pursue this course of action.
  • Third, by achieving a victory here, it will cause piracy and abuses of the system to skyrocket. Piracy will become more rampant because the definition of physical goods and intellectual property will be skewed (intellectual property being sold as physical goods). Therefore, people will be able to get away with more illegal activities when it comes to software acquisition based on a "gray area" in the law. DRM will be powerless to stop this.
  • Fourth, developers will make less money. Less money means less projects, less projects means less creativity, and so on. It's a dangerous snow-ball effect.
  • Fifth, scamming using a resale system will become rampant.
  • Sixth, people will attempt to push that they can "sell" their Steam account, which means that a price will have to be assigned to a set of data. That presents a massive problem because no one will want to buy anything new when they can get the same "product" at a lower price.
  • Seventh, digital media does not degrade in performance on its own over time. Software may become outdated, but it is the same as the day it was released UNLESS the software company that owns the intellectual rights makes an update. Because of this, it is reasonable to believe that the value does not degrade either unless the software itself has become outdated. So what sort of price do you assign to intellectual property?
  • Eighth, the consumer is owed NOTHING for intellectual property that is not theirs. The license is worthless without intellectual rights, which is assigned to one person and one person only. It will be akin to selling a video card second hand and it not coming with a warranty... this means that the software will be sold AS IS with no additional updates being required. Again, that's a dangerous prospect.


I'm sure I will think of more, but you get the point. There are so many negatives to this that the positives are completely diminished. With any luck, more people will realize that selling something that is not "physical goods" is a bad idea, no matter how you spin it.

Amen. thumb.gif

Wonderful post, and wonderfully put together.
post #129 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChaos View Post

Dude, buy your games from somewhere else, problem solved

No, I shouldn't have to because the lettering of the law is clear. So, it doesn't matter where I buy from, they should be allowing resales. Furthermore, that's such a ridiculous and childish thing to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erunion View Post

You only responded to the one thing I said I didn't want to address?

The irony is that some people have accused Valve of being greedy, but it seems that "pro-reselling" argument revolves entirely around short-sighted self interest. And there seems to be no attempt to hide that.

Society( and voluntary exchange) is build on cooperation. Governments( and war) are based on conflict, winners and losers, and might makes right.

Thing is, I just find the whole attempts at arguing against it ridiculous. There is no argument against taht si valid. The right to resell something you have bought is unabashed and yes, the government dictating that is right. If the government doesn't dictate it then it won't happen. And there' s a big difference between the baboons we "vote" into office and the courts. The courts don't change every few years, they're always the same.

Without "government" oversight, we here in the EU wouldn't enjoy may, many consumer rights that protect us. For instance, there's an EU directive that states we have 24 months manufacturers warranty. The same directive has been adapted to include that rooting and flashing custom software on your phone doesn't void your warranty for hardware based problems. The consumer rights directives are good, regardless of what you might want to try and assert, there is nothing about war and conflict in that directive that gives me more rights over the manufacturer and it forces the manufacturers to create good products.

Then again, when there are laws in the US that are anti-consumer, I can see your stance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuuut View Post

No your right whe get all the awesome copy and pasta ports because PC gaming is booming bussiness rolleyes.gif

No, we get "ports" because the console market is bigger, so games are designed with those in mind. Not for any other reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChaos View Post

Then why are console gaming sales on a decline while PC gaming sales are rising?

In the end what would this really mean for the consumer is what it comes down to. The right to sell a game (under some strict guideline most likely) would not be the saving grace we think it could be.

It's not supposed to be any kind of saving grace. It's just the right to sell something on that you bought. For instance, I don't like Dawn of War. I bought it, played it, it's crap to me. I should be able to sell it to someone else and get SOME of my money back. Or hell, even give the damn thing away. Whatever, it should be entirely my choice what to do with it... but it currently isn't because Steam violate that right.


I'm a big Steam fan and there are MANY games I wouldn't think about selling. I'd say, 98% of my list would stay. I like Steam, don't get me wrong (some 200+ games) but that doesn't mean I agree, at all, that games should become irrevocably tied to my account.
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post #130 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

Cuz used car sales killed the auto industry right? And used homes caused the bubble to burst in real estate right? Used bicycles killed the cycling industry right? Craigslist omg, what now?
All that stuff has a finite lifespan so that's not really a valid comparison.
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