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[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 15

post #141 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaToast View Post

Do you think I like how they do business? You are sadly mistaken, I just don't live in a fantasy land where I believe used games wont hurt the market of PC gaming. I'm aware I don't own the games in my steam library, I'm aware that used games benefit the consumer and I'm aware my rights are being violated by not being able sell games. However you still fail to see that the PC market literally means nothing to publishers when used games are involved. You wanna talk about being taken advantage of, just look at all the promises devs and publishers put out to appease the PC market that never actually come. I don't agree with not having the right to own my games nor the ability to sell them but I'm not naive enough to think the used market wont alter how the PC market is treated.

You DO own your list.

And there are MANY ways they could get around this and they're already doing it successfully on the console market. VIP codes and one off "gifts" for first time buyers that aren't transferable. There is absolutely nothing about used games that will destroy the PC market.
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post #142 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

This is a very dangerous path for Germany to be walking. The ramifications of a decision to allow players to "resell" their games will mean dire consequences for consumers.

  • First, there will be court costs. That will dip into profits, so operating costs will go up. Guess who that's passed on to?
  • Second, everything in Steam's library is license-based (as is virtually anything in the software world), where the creator of the software owns it and Steam is selling you a license to use it. For anyone (including a governing body) to believe that they own something that is intellectual property that they didn't create is foolish. That reason, alone, gives Valve the right to counter sue any governing body that wishes to pursue this course of action.
  • Third, by achieving a victory here, it will cause piracy and abuses of the system to skyrocket. Piracy will become more rampant because the definition of physical goods and intellectual property will be skewed (intellectual property being sold as physical goods). Therefore, people will be able to get away with more illegal activities when it comes to software acquisition based on a "gray area" in the law. DRM will be powerless to stop this.
  • Fourth, developers will make less money. Less money means less projects, less projects means less creativity, and so on. It's a dangerous snow-ball effect.
  • Fifth, scamming using a resale system will become rampant.
  • Sixth, people will attempt to push that they can "sell" their Steam account, which means that a price will have to be assigned to a set of data. That presents a massive problem because no one will want to buy anything new when they can get the same "product" at a lower price.
  • Seventh, digital media does not degrade in performance on its own over time. Software may become outdated, but it is the same as the day it was released UNLESS the software company that owns the intellectual rights makes an update. Because of this, it is reasonable to believe that the value does not degrade either unless the software itself has become outdated. So what sort of price do you assign to intellectual property?
  • Eighth, the consumer is owed NOTHING for intellectual property that is not theirs. The license is worthless without intellectual rights, which is assigned to one person and one person only. It will be akin to selling a video card second hand and it not coming with a warranty... this means that the software will be sold AS IS with no additional updates being required. Again, that's a dangerous prospect.


I'm sure I will think of more, but you get the point. There are so many negatives to this that the positives are completely diminished. With any luck, more people will realize that selling something that is not "physical goods" is a bad idea, no matter how you spin it.

Sorry for the Double post, but I Just read this, and You sir, have put it beautify!
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post #143 of 503
I don't like this, please take away my rights! Cuff me while you're at it too. I'm down with $1m dollar fine and 10 years prison for selling my old phone so hey, what's in a game? Take it away as well! Haha.
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post #144 of 503
No one is taking your right away, this is the way thing already are. The aim is to try to fix it without completely blowing the whole thing up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post

Dude...most cars last longer then games. When was the last time you played anything that came out in 1996 let alone any productivity software? I bet their are more used cars(let alone other items) that are older than 1996 for sale on CL. So digital media has a finite lifespan too.

Whether or not you would play it isn't really the point, it does not have a finite lifespan. It ages but does not break the same way a car would.
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post #145 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

You DO own your list.

And there are MANY ways they could get around this and they're already doing it successfully on the console market. VIP codes and one off "gifts" for first time buyers that aren't transferable. There is absolutely nothing about used games that will destroy the PC market.

I own the games my list? No I own the codes, not the ISO, not the disc, the code. I'm aware this has been beaten like an already dead horse but I know when I own a game and when I do not.

Console market != PC Market

Sorry but I personally don't see used gaming market being beneficial to PC gaming. That is my opinion at least and I have seen to many horrible truths to believe otherwise. xD
post #146 of 503
All this "the cost will be passed on to the consumer" stuff is silly. By that logic any attempt to restrict what corporations do will result in a worse situation for the consumers.

Guess what prevents that? Competition. If the market has enough competition (the PC games digital distribution market doesn't at the moment bu tit's increasing at a fast rate), the companies will be forced to sell their products at a reasonable price compared to manufacturing etc. costs.

I mean cmon people we've just had publishers, distributors, devs get rid of material costs when it comes to selling PC games, they've also taken away the ability to resell them, and in most cases the ability of many people in the same family for example to use them.

Giving consumers the ability to sell the license to other gamers is only a good thing if you look at the big picture, instead of just dwelling on steam maybe losing a bit of money.
 
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post #147 of 503
I think we're all looking at the bit picture, just seeing different things (as usual) tongue.gif
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post #148 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChaos View Post

No one is taking your right away, this is the way thing already are. The aim is to try to fix it without completely blowing the whole thing up.

I agree.

There needs to be a way to fix the whole situation, but it needs to be done from the top down, not the bottom up. All software has been like this ever since the beginning, and changing it now would be quite bad unless done in a way that is good for both parties. Software companies need to be assured their IP won't be copied/distributed wildly without some form of control to keep it from being pirated. And consumers need a way to be able to resell games with some sort of limit on the time or number of times a game can be redistributed to keep it from being pirated, or at least limit how much it can be, without it being cracked that is, as with most games it's only a matter of time until then.
post #149 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

This is a very dangerous path for Germany to be walking. The ramifications of a decision to allow players to "resell" their games will mean dire consequences for consumers.

  • First, there will be court costs. That will dip into profits, so operating costs will go up. Guess who that's passed on to?
  • Second, everything in Steam's library is license-based (as is virtually anything in the software world), where the creator of the software owns it and Steam is selling you a license to use it. For anyone (including a governing body) to believe that they own something that is intellectual property that they didn't create is foolish. That reason, alone, gives Valve the right to counter sue any governing body that wishes to pursue this course of action.
  • Third, by achieving a victory here, it will cause piracy and abuses of the system to skyrocket. Piracy will become more rampant because the definition of physical goods and intellectual property will be skewed (intellectual property being sold as physical goods). Therefore, people will be able to get away with more illegal activities when it comes to software acquisition based on a "gray area" in the law. DRM will be powerless to stop this.
  • Fourth, developers will make less money. Less money means less projects, less projects means less creativity, and so on. It's a dangerous snow-ball effect.
  • Fifth, scamming using a resale system will become rampant.
  • Sixth, people will attempt to push that they can "sell" their Steam account, which means that a price will have to be assigned to a set of data. That presents a massive problem because no one will want to buy anything new when they can get the same "product" at a lower price.
  • Seventh, digital media does not degrade in performance on its own over time. Software may become outdated, but it is the same as the day it was released UNLESS the software company that owns the intellectual rights makes an update. Because of this, it is reasonable to believe that the value does not degrade either unless the software itself has become outdated. So what sort of price do you assign to intellectual property?
  • Eighth, the consumer is owed NOTHING for intellectual property that is not theirs. The license is worthless without intellectual rights, which is assigned to one person and one person only. It will be akin to selling a video card second hand and it not coming with a warranty... this means that the software will be sold AS IS with no additional updates being required. Again, that's a dangerous prospect.


I'm sure I will think of more, but you get the point. There are so many negatives to this that the positives are completely diminished. With any luck, more people will realize that selling something that is not "physical goods" is a bad idea, no matter how you spin it.

  • Steam can't pass on the cost to customers. They don't set the prices they just take a 40% cut. They also fought in court for years before, prices didn't go then, either.
  • The EU already ruled that the copyright owner has no right to limit the sale of the licence. They can't counter sue.
  • What a completely skewed way of looking at it, not to mention wrong. The ruling is about licences, not the intellectual property. You can only resell a legitimate licence for use... Did you even read? This would not cause people to sell IP, or burn a disc and sell something they don't legitimately own. It cannot be done.
  • Developers may make less money if they don't adapt. Except, they already are adapting to the used game market on consoles and have handled it well. VIP codes and DLC, amongst other things.
  • There is no issue with selling a Steam account and being able to buy something at a lower prices... already exists on the console market. That hasn't gone anywhere. The single reason why consoles are more popular is because you don't need technical knowledge or have to have even a vague interest in computers to play and enjoy them, and the large upfront costs of PC hardware is a put off. There is no other reason why PC gaming isn't as popular
  • WRONG, the consume can sell their licence to the product and the IP owners are not allowed to hinder that.



You got it all wrong.
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post #150 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

and in most cases the ability of many people in the same family for example to use them.

This is really my only gripe with this whole thing.
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