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[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 19

post #181 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

I'm wondering if the tone of this thread would be different if it was EA/Origin or Ubisoft/Uplay being sued instead of Valve/Steam.

I woulden't mind being able to trade/sell my Steam games if it was possible. But you have to think of it this way, it would cost Valve money to sit there transfering content from one person to another for no gain to them. Not going to happen.
post #182 of 503
I'm predicting that this whole thing will cause a lot of publishers (since they're the ones who would need to provide extra keys for the resold copies on Steam) will simple stop selling in Germany, OR, the price of games in Germany will increase to compensate for the "loss of revenue" (according to game publishers, anyway).

I'd love to be able to completely own my games, and even resell them, but I really don't like where this is going.
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post #183 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Most hard copies have to be activated via some kind of digital distribution service these days. So good luck, at least with most AAA games.
Sueing one digital distribution service isn't going to change much, you'll have to go after the whole of the digital software world as they all have the same rules of "licensing". If anything I see more games becoming pay2play like WoW where you pay to play for x months and just quit when you're done.

They are a Service, you don't have to use the service, but you choose to do so.

Many people do not "choose" to use steam or any other dd client, sometimes they are forced into using it, even if they buy a physical copy of the game alot more games nowdays are tied to steam, even if its not a valve title. They cannot even resell their physical copy because it has no worth, its just disks; the cdkey is locked on steam.

Since we are paying for licenses, why are they charging us 60$ and 50$ for it? Also please do not bring steam sales into this, those are at least a year later to see those type of prices, if it was a console game you could probably buy it used for that price and you would own it and still be able to resell it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

Again nobody is forcing you to buy Steamworks games. What about all the apps you buy in App store, Market etc.

The thing is there are very few games out there that do not require steam, origin or uplay and the list is only getting shorter, look at the amount of non valve games that require steam its atrocious.
Edited by sausageson - 2/1/13 at 4:08pm
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post #184 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBrogbo View Post

I'm predicting that this whole thing will cause a lot of publishers (since they're the ones who would need to provide extra keys for the resold copies on Steam) will simple stop selling in Germany, OR, the price of games in Germany will increase to compensate for the "loss of revenue" (according to game publishers, anyway).

I'd love to be able to completely own my games, and even resell them, but I really don't like where this is going.

An economically stable country in a turbulent world with close to 90 million inhabitants isn't a market you leave.
 
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post #185 of 503
IMO, I don't have a problem with people giving their licence to someone else for money. It's still 1 licence to play being owned by 1 player at a time.

So whether or not we own the games shouldn't matter anyway.
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post #186 of 503
Go germany!
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post #187 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaded War View Post

I woulden't mind being able to trade/sell my Steam games if it was possible. But you have to think of it this way, it would cost Valve money to sit there transfering content from one person to another for no gain to them. Not going to happen.

It would be a truly miniscule amount of money - they already have a system to tie the game to my account so how much trouble would it really be to change that registration to a different account? The bandwidth cost would be a factor, but that's why they should set it up as a marketplace and take a small cut. Of course that would piss off the publishers so they won't do it unless they are forced, which brings us back to the lawsuit. They already let you gift games, so they've obviously got the technology.

Amazon already allows second-hand sales on their own product page, so Steam could have something similar. Actually, that's not a bad model to follow, except the publishers would scream bloody murder.
Edited by Forceman - 2/1/13 at 4:05pm
post #188 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBrogbo View Post

I'm predicting that this whole thing will cause a lot of publishers (since they're the ones who would need to provide extra keys for the resold copies on Steam) will simple stop selling in Germany, OR, the price of games in Germany will increase to compensate for the "loss of revenue" (according to game publishers, anyway).

I'd love to be able to completely own my games, and even resell them, but I really don't like where this is going.

That isn't going to happen. They're not going to stop selling in Germany (or the whole EU) just because this passes. They will still make money. They will simply adapt. If the courts ruled against Valve, they would give Valve and publishers a long time to prepare.

Also, there is no need to provide an extra key. You use the same key. On Steam, et al, you just move it from one account, to another. It's the same key. But then again, even if they did ahve to provide another key (they don't) that doesn't cost money to produce. It's generated by an algorithm,
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post #189 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

  • Steam can't pass on the cost to customers. They don't set the prices they just take a 40% cut. They also fought in court for years before, prices didn't go then, either.
  • The EU already ruled that the copyright owner has no right to limit the sale of the licence. They can't counter sue.
  • What a completely skewed way of looking at it, not to mention wrong. The ruling is about licences, not the intellectual property. You can only resell a legitimate licence for use... Did you even read? This would not cause people to sell IP, or burn a disc and sell something they don't legitimately own. It cannot be done.
  • Developers may make less money if they don't adapt. Except, they already are adapting to the used game market on consoles and have handled it well. VIP codes and DLC, amongst other things.
  • There is no issue with selling a Steam account and being able to buy something at a lower prices... already exists on the console market. That hasn't gone anywhere. The single reason why consoles are more popular is because you don't need technical knowledge or have to have even a vague interest in computers to play and enjoy them, and the large upfront costs of PC hardware is a put off. There is no other reason why PC gaming isn't as popular
  • WRONG, the consume can sell their licence to the product and the IP owners are not allowed to hinder that.

You got it all wrong.

  • Steam CAN and WILL pass on the cost to customers. When you set an industry-wide precedent like this, costs for EVERYONE involved in the industry will go up, not just Valve/Steam.
  • The EU is a governing body that does have limits. They do not rule the world. Because of this, they can be contested if the precedent is flawed, and in this case, there are so many loop holes in their ruling that the document might as well be a piece of swiss cheese.
  • The license is for one user only. By reselling that license, you void the terms of that license. Even if it does become legal, the company that made said software will no longer be obligated to make regular updates to the software, so you might as well buy a new copy.
  • Developers make less money, period. The only adaptation is lower wages or job cutting, both of which are bad. As an industry, adaptations have already been made over time, but when you start taking out your loss of profits on the employees, that's when the line is crossed. Either that, or the price of the media goes up; you will be spending $100 on a new game and $50 on a used one. No money is saved in the long run.
  • Digital software can be copied, reproduced, and even rewritten, as has been seen by the piracy market. Consoles use physical media which is much harder to reproduce. When it comes to PC games, it's as simple as copy and paste, crack the governing algorithm or make a key generator, and viola! New game copy.
  • PC hardware has nothing to do with this argument, so that point is irrelevant. Anyone that makes a gaming computer chooses to do so by their own will. Consoles are cheaper.
  • The next time you create something, I'm going to take it, claim it as my own, and resell it. You will be angry about it, but it doesn't matter. You have no rights.... how dumb does that sound? That's essentially what you're saying.

There is a REASON you cannot compare physical goods to intellectual property. Physical goods are hard to reproduce and usually require special equipment or techniques to create a copy. Intellectual property, on the other hand, is easy to reproduce and can usually be done with a point and click in terms of digital data. That's the reason why piracy is such an issue right now. If data was much harder to reproduce, we wouldn't have nearly as much piracy as we do today.




Quote:
Originally Posted by mechati View Post

1. Following your opinion any physical item resold is piracy. You do realize that car or any other item is intelectual property as well? Design, materials used to make it, process to build it up from scratch, etc...
If I can resell music (another intellectual property) then why can't I resell a game i purchased?
2. Abuses of the system? What system? System where publisher pushes not finished game that plays craptastic and one instead of paying full price wants to pay less (because for him its not worth the full price)?
3. Just because developers will make less money that is NOT equal to less creativity. Look at how many indie games are out there with REALLY SMALL capital invested and rethink the tie between money and creativity.
4. And there is enough zealots or fans for any type of game that will buy the original and will not wait for price drop (doesnt' matter if its steam sale or if it's resod by anyone else). Look at graphics card market, cpu market - same story - new intel about to come out - more than half of OCN is crapping their pants and cannot wait to get their hands on it.

The only question that I would see fitting here is how much can you resell the game for? Is it a used product (and you drop the price by 20%) or you still treat it as brand new...

  1. Physical items degrade over time. Digital data does not UNLESS it is manually altered. It can become outdated, but comparing a piece of software to a car really is an unfair comparison considering how much money the owner of the car will end up putting into it before they finally get rid of it and get a new one. Physical goods can be owned. Intellectual property is owned by the creator and licensed to users. This will not change.
  2. As far as reselling music goes, a $.69 song is not the same as a piece of software, and it has been contested on multiple occasions that the practice of reselling digital music is fundamentally flawed due to the fact that the source can be copied indefinitely, much like a digital game.
  3. Your point on this one is one of perspective, and the reasoning uses intangibles that cannot have a value placed on it. Therefore, the point is entirely irrelevant unless you plan on defining what you would consider "not finished" which is a very broad definition by its very nature; The issue is totally subjective.
  4. Less money = less jobs or higher prices. What part of this do people not understand? Staff cuts are never good for anyone, and neither are price hikes. Saying that the company can adapt is also wholly illogical; they adapt by getting rid of people, cutting salaries, or raising prices. That's it.
  5. The reason the gaming industry is successful for those that make great games is because they reap the benefit of making all the money on the sale of the item. Even if Steam takes a cut of the profits, the developer still stands to make far more money from a first-time purchase than a resale, even if the company gets a cut of the profits from the 2nd hand sale. Again, comparing the sale of physical goods to intellectual property is not fair in the slightest; one is very difficult to copy, and the other is very easy.

Edited by Mad Pistol - 2/1/13 at 4:16pm
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post #190 of 503
Here is what I find funny about this. People compare piracy to stealing a physical item, but then these companies sell us software then turn around and say we don't technically own it. That's absolutely ridiculous. We should be able to resell any software just like we would any physical item. Usually the rule is whatever is in the best interest for the company. You can't make certain rules of ownership apply to digital information and some not. Its all or nothing.
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