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[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 20

post #191 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huzzbutt View Post

National Law supercedes TOS
TOS is irrelevant if it can be proven that most consumers believe that they purchase the game, desnt even have to go that far, just look at the buttons when you finalize your purchase: "buy this for myself" or "whatever" This isn't controversial or even close to debateable. TOS is far less of a potent contract than clicking a button that says "buy this for myself", just by having it there they're telling you that you are purchasing the game. The repeated message is that you are buying games, not that you are purchasing licenses for steam. thus the repeated contract (all sales are contracts) is that you buy games.
If Mr Nevell is going to contest this he should have put : "License to play" as prefix to every title and changed the little button to: "purchase for license for steam"
Again TOS is less important when contradictory messages are displayed in greater numbers. the Whole TOS as a legal device thing is just silly since it doesn't require any personal identification

I know it does, but as I said, from a practical standpoint, not a legal standpoint, you actually own nothing at all in the current circumstances.

It may say you do on a legislative piece of paper, but try acting on what that piece of paper says and...........you realise you own nothing.

Not the game.

Not the license.

Not access to the license.


You literally own nothing at all.

You do not have what the law claims you own in your possession. They do.

You do not control what the law claims you own. They do.


Just as TOS are superseded by law, law is often superseded by the reality of a given situation.

Law says I can't kill people, but I could've killed ten people yesterday. If I pay off the right people, the law is superseded by £$£$£$£$£.

Law says you should declare the correct amount of taxes but......you know.


The reality of the situation, is that we are not buying licenses for ourselves. We have a friend that we can pay to run to the shops and buy a game(license), but our access to that game is dictated completely by our friend and if we ever fall out, he keeps the game. Mostly because the agreement was that the game had to stay in his house 24/7, which is why we couldn't sell or borrow it to anybody.


Its basically a game you bought for his game collection that he loans access to you on an extremely temporary basis (i.e. the time you spend at his house playing it)

Its just that as long as you stay friends, he'll let you play it when you visit him.


Again, legislation may say one thing, but the reality of the situation is a different story altogether.


Hence the suing.
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post #192 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

  • Steam CAN and WILL pass on the cost to customers. When you set an industry-wide precedent like this, costs for EVERYONE involved in the industry will go up, not just Valve/Steam.
  • The EU is a governing body that does have limits. They do not rule the world. Because of this, they can be contested if the precedent is flawed, and in this case, there are so many loop holes in their ruling that the document might as well be a piece of swiss cheese.
  • The license is for one user only. By reselling that license, you void the terms of that license. Even if it does become legal, the company that made said software will no longer be obligated to make regular updates to the software, so you might as well buy a new copy.
  • Developers make less money, period. The only adaptation is lower wages or job cutting, both of which are bad. As an industry, adaptations have already been made over time, but when you start taking out your loss of profits on the employees, that's when the line is crossed.
  • Digital software can be copied, reproduced, and even rewritten, as has been seen by the piracy market. Consoles use physical media which is much harder to reproduce. When it comes to PC games, it's as simple as copy and paste, crack the governing algorithm or make a key generator, and viola! New game copy.
  • PC hardware has nothing to do with this argument, so that point is irrelevant. Anyone that makes a gaming computer chooses to do so by their own will. Consoles are cheaper.
  • The next time you create something, I'm going to take it, claim it as my own, and resell it. You will be angry about it, but it doesn't matter. You have no rights.... how dumb does that sound? That's essentially what you're saying.

There is a REASON you cannot compare physical goods to intellectual property. Physical goods are hard to reproduce and usually require special equipment or techniques to create a copy. Intellectual property, on the other hand, is easy to reproduce and can usually be done with a point and click in terms of digital data. That's the reason why piracy is such an issue right now. If data was much harder to reproduce, we wouldn't have nearly as much piracy as we do today.
1. Physical items degrade over time. Digital data does not UNLESS it is manually altered. It can become outdated, but comparing a piece of software to a car really is an unfair comparison considering how much money the owner of the car will end up putting into it before they finally get rid of it and get a new one. Physical goods can be owned. Intellectual property is owned by the creator and licensed to users. This will not change.
As far as reselling music goes, a $.69 song is not the same as a piece of software, and it has been contested on multiple occasions that the practice of reselling digital music is fundamentally flawed due to the fact that the source can be copied indefinitely, much like a digital game.
2. Your point on this one is one of perspective, and the reasoning uses intangibles that cannot have a value placed on it. Therefore, the point is entirely irrelevant unless you plan on defining what you would consider "not finished" which is a very broad definition by its very nature; The issue is totally subjective.
3. Less money = less jobs. What part of this do people not understand? Staff cuts are never good for anyone. Saying that the company can adapt is also wholly illogical; they adapt by getting rid of people or cutting salaries.
4. The reason the gaming industry is successful for those that make great games is because they reap the benefit of making all the money on the sale of the item. Even if Steam takes a cut of the profits, the developer still stands to make far more money from a first-time purchase than a resale, even if the company gets a cut of the profits from the 2nd hand sale. Again, comparing the sale of physical goods to intellectual property is not fair in the slightest; one is very difficult to copy, and the other is very easy.


Games are not IP Licenses.
Owning the IP or having a license for it means that you can reproduce either as much as you want or in finite numbers.

Let's get to the basic, the real basics. Art.
You can buy a painting and sell it. you don't own the IP you don't have a license for it, you own the reproduction of the concept that the artist transformed into a physical representation, you can sell the painting but you may not sell pictures of the painting.
Samething with books, kettles, cars, monsanto corn and CD's.
The end product of an IP or in the case of games many different companies IP is no different in it's composition than that of any other object and as far as I know no electronic game has yet outlived an Engine or kettle, painting or even Vinyl, in most cases games decay faster than any of those objects, try to play a cartridge of pong on your x86 system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

(...)

Hmm yes but i disagree on reality superceding the law in this case as you position it as a negative, reality is that the system used by steam insiuates that you are buying something for your self, it even says so. thus the percieved reality is actual purchase of actual object.
 
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post #193 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

PC gaming is more than big enough to survive without people siding with corporations and less consumer rights.

Valve isn't something that needs protection, it's a big company, a company that wishes to maximize profits. It's a good thing that European countries are knocking some sense into the whole gaming industry.
I don't really feel like the current model gives consumers a bad deal. We can't resell our games, but as others have mentioned we get discounted prices faster and much lower than on any other platform as a result.

In fact if something like this passed, Steam's prices would almost certainly go up and resale money wouldn't go towards developers at all. It seems like a losing proposition for everyone involved, and all for the sake of a sense of consumer "freedom?" Not worth it imo.
post #194 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huzzbutt View Post

Games are not IP Licenses.
Owning the IP or having a license for it means that you can reproduce either as much as you want or in finite numbers.

Let's get to the basic, the real basics. Art.
You can buy a painting and sell it. you don't own the IP you don't have a license for it, you own the reproduction of the concept that the artist transformed into a physical representation, you can sell the painting but you may not sell pictures of the painting.
Samething with books, kettles, cars, monsanto corn and CD's.
The end product of an IP or in the case of games many different companies IP is no different in it's composition than that of any other object and as far as I know no electronic game has yet outlived an Engine or kettle, painting or even Vinyl, in most cases games decay faster than any of those objects, try to play a cartridge of pong on your x86 system.

Stop. You said art, which is physical goods. It is very difficult to reproduce a piece of art, no matter what the art may be. Physical music (performance) or visual (painting), etc. Art is very difficult to reproduce. A physical painting is physical goods. There is no room for interpretation on that one.

Books are physical goods.
kettles are physical goods.
everything you listed IS a type of physical goods.

Software at it's purest point is intellectual property. It is not physical; software can be reproduced easily, which means that the creator of said software has to protect their assets or they will be exploited. Reselling of digital media is an exploitation of their work that devalues it and degrades their accomplishment. It can be reproduced in such a way that copies can be made that the buyer of said digital media will stand to profit if used improperly. A user should never be allowed to profiteer off of someone else's work.

Please stop comparing physical goods to intellectual property. It's apples vs. oranges.
Edited by Mad Pistol - 2/1/13 at 4:34pm
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post #195 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

  • Steam CAN and WILL pass on the cost to customers. When you set an industry-wide precedent like this, costs for EVERYONE involved in the industry will go up, not just Valve/Steam.
  • The EU is a governing body that does have limits. They do not rule the world. Because of this, they can be contested if the precedent is flawed, and in this case, there are so many loop holes in their ruling that the document might as well be a piece of swiss cheese.
  • The license is for one user only. By reselling that license, you void the terms of that license. Even if it does become legal, the company that made said software will no longer be obligated to make regular updates to the software, so you might as well buy a new copy.
  • Developers make less money, period. The only adaptation is lower wages or job cutting, both of which are bad. As an industry, adaptations have already been made over time, but when you start taking out your loss of profits on the employees, that's when the line is crossed. Either that, or the price of the media goes up; you will be spending $100 on a new game and $50 on a used one. No money is saved in the long run.
  • Digital software can be copied, reproduced, and even rewritten, as has been seen by the piracy market. Consoles use physical media which is much harder to reproduce. When it comes to PC games, it's as simple as copy and paste, crack the governing algorithm or make a key generator, and viola! New game copy.
  • PC hardware has nothing to do with this argument, so that point is irrelevant. Anyone that makes a gaming computer chooses to do so by their own will. Consoles are cheaper.
  • The next time you create something, I'm going to take it, claim it as my own, and resell it. You will be angry about it, but it doesn't matter. You have no rights.... how dumb does that sound? That's essentially what you're saying.

There is a REASON you cannot compare physical goods to intellectual property. Physical goods are hard to reproduce and usually require special equipment or techniques to create a copy. Intellectual property, on the other hand, is easy to reproduce and can usually be done with a point and click in terms of digital data. That's the reason why piracy is such an issue right now. If data was much harder to reproduce, we wouldn't have nearly as much piracy as we do today.

What?!

Sorry but how much more wrong could you make this?

  • Steam can't pass this onto customers. That woudl be publishers... who won't be going up in court if Valve lose.
  • No, they don't ruel the world, they govern the EU. If this passed all EU territories would be affected. That's a BIG place and a large market to shun. There aren't any loop holes at all. The licence just needs to be able to resold. That's it. Anything else is a complication you guys are trying to insert.
  • Wrong the licence is for one user (or however many users) at a time. Not one user, ever. I suggest you read the recent ruling.
  • Right because that's all that will happen? If we push this magic resellers button developers will instantly make less money and planes will fall out of the sky? I see what you're trying to do, you and others, trying your best to scare monger. It's not working. Developers, for a start, unless they're independent, will make as much money as they did before. PUBLISHERS, on the other hand, may not. However, publishers will find other, legal, ways of making money. In all your ridioculous rhetoric and scaremongering, you forget that publishers are already dealing, effectively, with preowned sales on consoles with VIP codes and buying new incentives.
  • Right, so show me pirated games working on Steam? Can't do it? Thought not. ALso, show me the lack of pirated games on the Xbox? PS3? No? Can't do it? Thought not. It's a simple solution and being obtuse about it isn't doing anything. You own a game on Steam (yeah, you own it - no, not that ridiculusly and purposefully obtuse way of saying "nah you don't own thier game blah blah", no you OWN that particular copy. It's YOURS. Not the IP, just that copy. Get that straight) and you want to sell it to your buddy, or some random person. You agree a price with them through what ever means. Initiate the transaction from within Steam. Both parties agree, Steam lifts the key off your account and places it onto theirs. How the hell does that translate to being able to pirate and all the rest?
  • The point about hardware was to ullustrate why consoles are more popular - it's not because they have or don't have preowned games as someone else mentioned.
  • And this is just flat out ridiculous and not even right. The next time I create something and you BUY it from me then it's yours. If I make a million of them and you buy one, that's yours. You can do what you want with it. If you TAKE anything that's mine that's stealing. You ahve absolutely no grip on this conversation or what's going on and this point you failed ot make shows that. This isn't about piracy. This is about taking a COPY of a game that YOU OWN and selling it. Once you have sold it, the new person owns it, they can use it and you cannot. Just like ANYTHING else. If you sell a car you can't keep using it. IF you sell a guitar, you can't keep using it. EQUALLY (and it does NOT matter that it's digital or not) if you sell your COPY of a game that you OWN, you CAN'T keep using it because you no longer have. If it's not on your Steam/Origin/whatever, you can't use it!


It's simple and I don't see why you are obfuscating the matter and trying to bend it.
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post #196 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huzzbutt View Post

Hmm yes but i disagree on reality superceding the law in this case as you position it as a negative, reality is that the system used by steam insiuates that you are buying something for your self, it even says so. thus the percieved reality is actual purchase of actual object.

But that is EXACTLY where this whole issue stems from.

That perceived reality isn't actually the reality at all.


Sure the perception is that you just bought yourself a game.


The reality is that you don't own anything you just spent money on.


I own my hat. I can use it, destroy it, loan it, do whatever with it, whenever I feel, because it's mine. Its my possession. I paid money and the hat was transferred.

I down own a Steam game license. I can't use it, destroy it, loan it, do whatever with it, whenever I feel, because that license was never in my possession. I paid money, but what actually is it that was transferred to me to make it a fair deal?

Did I get the license? No I didn't.....somebody, something has that license and the ability to control it. Somebody has taken ownership of it, in order to be able to do the kind of things a person/entity should be able to do with something they own. But who? Who has that control?

Is it me? No.

Is it Valves service? Yes.

Do I own Valves service? No

Does Valve own Valves service? Yes.

So who practically (not legislatively) owns the license? Valve.


Legislative paperwork in a government building says one thing. Reality says something different.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 2/1/13 at 4:39pm
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post #197 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

But that is EXACTLY where this whole issue stems from.

But that perceived reality isn't actually the reality at all.


Sure the perception is that you just bought yourself a game.


The reality is that you down own anything you just spent money on.


I own my hat. I can use it, destroy it, loan it, do whatever with it, whenever I feel, because it's mine. Its my possession. I paid money and the hat was transferred.

I down own a Steam license. I can't use it, destroy it, loan it, do whatever with it, whenever I feel, because that license was never in my possession. I paid money, but what actually is it that was transferred to me to make it a fair deal?

Did I get the license? No I didn't.....somebody, something has that license and the ability to control it. Somebody has taken ownership of it, in order to be able to do the kind of things a person/entity should be able to do with something they own. But who? Who has that control?

Is it me? No.

Is it Valves service? Yes.

Do I own Valves service? No

Does Valve own Valves service? Yes.

So who practically (not legislatively) owns the license? Valve.

Question...

Who says you don't own the license to the content you bought?

Valve?

And on who's authority do they get to make such a decision? Oh, that's right, the governing body of the country in which they operate.

If the German government says you own the software you purchased from Valve; then you own the software you purchased from Valve in Germany, and you, by extension, are entitled to whatever rights come along with that.
 
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post #198 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

Stop. You said art, which is physical goods. It is very difficult to reproduce a piece of art, no matter what the art may be. Physical music (performance) or visual (painting), etc. Art is very difficult to reproduce. A physical painting is physical goods. There is no room for interpretation on that one.

Books are physical goods.
kettles are physical goods.
everything you listed IS a type of physical goods.

Software at it's purest point is intellectual property. It is not physical; software can be reproduced easily, which means that the creator of said software has to protect their assets or they will be exploited.

Please stop comparing physical goods to intellectual property. It's apples vs. oranges.

Once affordable printing techniques were available, everyone who could make mesh could copy anything, art class basics, make a mesh then anyone can make a copy.
Games are physical goods, cartridges are physical, CDs, DVDs and I'll be damned but so is digital download to otherwise it wouldn't exist.
Software isn't intellectual property, they are a commodity. Just like rebar and concrete, behind the concrete atleast theres some intellectual property.
Software is harder to reproduce than art, the investment required is larger than that of an easel and painting supplies, or in the case of photography, 10 cent and a local office store with a Xerox in a corner.
It's not apples vs oranges it's apples vs apples and it will always be that way.
 
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post #199 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

(...)

If i buy a 20 tonne cube of steel i can not destroy it, I can't move it and well i can't do much about it except watch it rust and sink into the ground, physical restrictions are only temporary. Once i get the right tools or in this case the right precedent and law I can always rely on it being my property.
 
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post #200 of 503
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Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

That isn't going to happen. They're not going to stop selling in Germany (or the whole EU) just because this passes. They will still make money. They will simply adapt. If the courts ruled against Valve, they would give Valve and publishers a long time to prepare.

Also, there is no need to provide an extra key. You use the same key. On Steam, et al, you just move it from one account, to another. It's the same key. But then again, even if they did ahve to provide another key (they don't) that doesn't cost money to produce. It's generated by an algorithm,

Obviously Steam could adapt no problem, but each individual publisher will either have to make the change to allowing keys to be transferred, or issue new keys. I would imagine a lot of the smaller publishers will have a bigger issue doing this than larger ones like Bethesda. Who knows if some of the smaller firms (rather than mess with this), region-lock their games out of Germany. I'm not really expecting this to happen, I was just throwing it out there.

Also, I know that generating keys doesn't cost money, and I honestly believe that used game sales (and to some extent, piracy) don't impact publishers' bottom lines that much, but when you throw used game sales back into the picture (when they haven't been there in 10 years), publishers are undoubtedly going to see it as a loss of new game sales, and therefore, revenue. There is no denying that. Isn't it a logical step to assume that publishers would look for ways to recoup their losses?
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