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[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 21

post #201 of 503
I don't get all this love for Steam - they don't even have a phone number for support.

Yeah they are better than others for the digital stuff and games but seriously this is 2013 and they should atleast have an option to sell/transfer games and accounts.
post #202 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huzzbutt View Post

If i buy a 20 tonne cube of steel i can not destroy it, I can't move it and well i can't do much about it except watch it rust and sink into the ground, physical restrictions are only temporary. Once i get the right tools or in this case the right precedent and law I can always rely on it being my property.

Precisely.

Except we do not have the tools, despite the law demand said tools to be present.

Hence the lawsuit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheezman View Post

Question...

Who says you don't own the license to the content you bought?

Valve?

And on who's authority do they get to make such a decision? Oh, that's right, the governing body of the country in which they operate.

If the German government says you own the software you purchased from Valve; then you own the software you purchased from Valve in Germany, and you, by extension, are entitled to whatever rights come along with that.

Once more, I am talking from a real world standpoint, not a legislative one.

The legislative standpoint is a best case by-the-book situation standpoint where the ability to own the license actually exists.

The reality standpoint is that we do not actually have that ability or facility to be in ownership of the licenses in a practical sense i.e. where you can do things with the license that defines ownership.

That's why the courts are suing in the first place.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 2/1/13 at 4:51pm
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post #203 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

Stop. You said art, which is physical goods. It is very difficult to reproduce a piece of art, no matter what the art may be. Physical music (performance) or visual (painting), etc. Art is very difficult to reproduce. A physical painting is physical goods. There is no room for interpretation on that one.

Books are physical goods.
kettles are physical goods.
everything you listed IS a type of physical goods.

Software at it's purest point is intellectual property. It is not physical; software can be reproduced easily, which means that the creator of said software has to protect their assets or they will be exploited. Reselling of digital media is an exploitation of their work that devalues it and degrades their accomplishment. It can be reproduced in such a way that copies can be made that the buyer of said digital media will stand to profit if used improperly. A user should never be allowed to profiteer off of someone else's work.

Please stop comparing physical goods to intellectual property. It's apples vs. oranges.

Don't get too attached to the art part. Take the books for example, the actual IP part of them is extremely easy to reproduce much in the same was as digital products are. Buying a physical book is the same as buying a game on a physical disc in terms of actually buying a physical good but also receiving easily reproducable IP.

Also please explain how reselling of digital good is exploiting the work. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Your argument is that the consumer should not be allowed to make more money off the product than he/she wasted on it? Then why exactly is selling rare books at a high price allowed? The owner of the IP wont see a dime of those profits nor should he, after the original sale it's none of the IP owners business what happens to a single physical item/ license.
 
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post #204 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

But that is EXACTLY where this whole issue stems from.

That perceived reality isn't actually the reality at all.


Sure the perception is that you just bought yourself a game.


The reality is that you don't own anything you just spent money on.


I own my hat. I can use it, destroy it, loan it, do whatever with it, whenever I feel, because it's mine. Its my possession. I paid money and the hat was transferred.

I down own a Steam game license. I can't use it, destroy it, loan it, do whatever with it, whenever I feel, because that license was never in my possession. I paid money, but what actually is it that was transferred to me to make it a fair deal?

Did I get the license? No I didn't.....somebody, something has that license and the ability to control it. Somebody has taken ownership of it, in order to be able to do the kind of things a person/entity should be able to do with something they own. But who? Who has that control?

Is it me? No.

Is it Valves service? Yes.

Do I own Valves service? No

Does Valve own Valves service? Yes.

So who practically (not legislatively) owns the license? Valve.


Legislative paperwork in a government building says one thing. Reality says something different.

The reality is that you own the licence. It is your licence. Valve do not have a massive pile of licences that Gabe Newell sleeps on like a greedy dragon.

Also, where is the licence in physical games? It's the thing you skip over and click"next" on like everything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBrogbo View Post

Obviously Steam could adapt no problem, but each individual publisher will either have to make the change to allowing keys to be transferred, or issue new keys. I would imagine a lot of the smaller publishers will have a bigger issue doing this than larger ones like Bethesda. Who knows if some of the smaller firms (rather than mess with this), region-lock their games out of Germany. I'm not really expecting this to happen, I was just throwing it out there.

Also, I know that generating keys doesn't cost money, and I honestly believe that used game sales (and to some extent, piracy) don't impact publishers' bottom lines that much, but when you throw used game sales back into the picture (when they haven't been there in 10 years), publishers are undoubtedly going to see it as a loss of new game sales, and therefore, revenue. There is no denying that. Isn't it a logical step to assume that publishers would look for ways to recoup their losses?

10 years? Come on, I bought a preowned copy of Crysis Warhead a couple of years ago. And guess what? It works fine.

There won't be any charge and there is zero need for publishers to make new keys. The game is lifted from one digital account to another. It's paperless and would take little time.
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post #205 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

Stop. You said art, which is physical goods. It is very difficult to reproduce a piece of art, no matter what the art may be. Physical music (performance) or visual (painting), etc. Art is very difficult to reproduce. A physical painting is physical goods. There is no room for interpretation on that one.

Books are physical goods.
kettles are physical goods.
everything you listed IS a type of physical goods.

Software at it's purest point is intellectual property. It is not physical; software can be reproduced easily, which means that the creator of said software has to protect their assets or they will be exploited. Reselling of digital media is an exploitation of their work that devalues it and degrades their accomplishment. It can be reproduced in such a way that copies can be made that the buyer of said digital media will stand to profit if used improperly. A user should never be allowed to profiteer off of someone else's work.

Please stop comparing physical goods to intellectual property. It's apples vs. oranges.

What about books and e-books? You can sell used books all day long, but you can't sell used e-books (at least not Kindle books). What's the difference between those two products that makes it okay to sell one but not the other? Exact same intellectual property in both of them.

Just because they've found a way to restrict your ability to sell it, doesn't mean they should be able to get away with it. I hate to return to the car analogy, but if VW put a fingerprint reader on the ignition of a car and tied it to your fingerprint (for anti-theft purposes, of course), would that make it okay for them to ban resale of that car? Would people argue the VW shouldn't have to provide a way of changing the registration of the fingerprint?
Edited by Forceman - 2/1/13 at 4:54pm
post #206 of 503
What a mess of abstract concepts. Even the idea of "ownership" is based entirely on social contract. I don't know what's right, but I'm sure glad it's not my job to argue one way or the other. That said, I am ok with the current nature of digital transactions.
    
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post #207 of 503
fact is, according to subscriber agreements. u don't own any game on steam. they're simply indefinite subscriptions, like rent, that will end if steam dies or if valves decides it wants to close your account
so yea. this is why i buy all new games on DVDs
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post #208 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post

fact is, according to subscriber agreements. u don't own any game on steam. they're simply indefinite subscriptions, like rent, that will end if steam dies or if valves decides it wants to close your account
so yea. this is why i buy all new games on DVDs

Fact also is, this ruling if passed, will allow the resell of digital license, and the unfair removal of said license without due process.
post #209 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

What?!

Sorry but how much more wrong could you make this?

  • Steam can't pass this onto customers. That woudl be publishers... who won't be going up in court if Valve lose.
  • No, they don't ruel the world, they govern the EU. If this passed all EU territories would be affected. That's a BIG place and a large market to shun. There aren't any loop holes at all. The licence just needs to be able to resold. That's it. Anything else is a complication you guys are trying to insert.
  • Wrong the licence is for one user (or however many users) at a time. Not one user, ever. I suggest you read the recent ruling.
  • Right because that's all that will happen? If we push this magic resellers button developers will instantly make less money and planes will fall out of the sky? I see what you're trying to do, you and others, trying your best to scare monger. It's not working. Developers, for a start, unless they're independent, will make as much money as they did before. PUBLISHERS, on the other hand, may not. However, publishers will find other, legal, ways of making money. In all your ridioculous rhetoric and scaremongering, you forget that publishers are already dealing, effectively, with preowned sales on consoles with VIP codes and buying new incentives.
  • Right, so show me pirated games working on Steam? Can't do it? Thought not. ALso, show me the lack of pirated games on the Xbox? PS3? No? Can't do it? Thought not. It's a simple solution and being obtuse about it isn't doing anything. You own a game on Steam (yeah, you own it - no, not that ridiculusly and purposefully obtuse way of saying "nah you don't own thier game blah blah", no you OWN that particular copy. It's YOURS. Not the IP, just that copy. Get that straight) and you want to sell it to your buddy, or some random person. You agree a price with them through what ever means. Initiate the transaction from within Steam. Both parties agree, Steam lifts the key off your account and places it onto theirs. How the hell does that translate to being able to pirate and all the rest?
  • The point about hardware was to ullustrate why consoles are more popular - it's not because they have or don't have preowned games as someone else mentioned.
  • And this is just flat out ridiculous and not even right. The next time I create something and you BUY it from me then it's yours. If I make a million of them and you buy one, that's yours. You can do what you want with it. If you TAKE anything that's mine that's stealing. You ahve absolutely no grip on this conversation or what's going on and this point you failed ot make shows that. This isn't about piracy. This is about taking a COPY of a game that YOU OWN and selling it. Once you have sold it, the new person owns it, they can use it and you cannot. Just like ANYTHING else. If you sell a car you can't keep using it. IF you sell a guitar, you can't keep using it. EQUALLY (and it does NOT matter that it's digital or not) if you sell your COPY of a game that you OWN, you CAN'T keep using it because you no longer have. If it's not on your Steam/Origin/whatever, you can't use it!



You continue to use physical goods as an example for your points. That is highly illogical. Physical goods are not intellectual property. Period. You cannot compare the two. One is easy to reproduce, the other is not. The one that is easy to reproduce (intellectual property, i.e. games) must be protected, otherwise the general populace will exploit it. This has been proven time and time again with the issues dealing with piracy.

Also, if this issue is so simple, why does this thread already have 200 posts on it? The issue is as clear as mud.

Point 1.
Quote:
Steam can't pass this onto customers. That would be publishers... who won't be going up in court if Valve lose.

Circle of economics:

Somebody creates something -> said person sells the creation -> a consumer buys the creation -> consumer creates their own creation (or goes to work to help make the creation).

It's a never ending cycle. If you increase the cost at any point during that process, the price for EVERYONE goes up. This is simple logic.

Point 2.
Quote:
No, they don't ruel the world, they govern the EU. If this passed all EU territories would be affected. That's a BIG place and a large market to shun. There aren't any loop holes at all. The licence just needs to be able to resold. That's it. Anything else is a complication you guys are trying to insert.

Software is a massive gray area. Just the issue with licenses being sold will have to be completely reworked, and when that happens, the terms will change to put more restrictions on the consumer. Us as consumers (even in parts of the world outside the jurisdiction of the EU) will still lose. This will not fix anything; it will create more problems.

Point 3.
Quote:
Wrong the licence is for one user (or however many users) at a time. Not one user, ever. I suggest you read the recent ruling.

Every warrantied item in the world is now a target if this policy comes to fruition (warranties are non-transferable unless the warranty explicitly explains that it is.) I have read the ruling, and it's about as clear as mud. So much is left open for interpretation.

Point 4.
Quote:
Right because that's all that will happen? If we push this magic resellers button developers will instantly make less money and planes will fall out of the sky? I see what you're trying to do, you and others, trying your best to scare monger. It's not working. Developers, for a start, unless they're independent, will make as much money as they did before. PUBLISHERS, on the other hand, may not. However, publishers will find other, legal, ways of making money. In all your ridioculous rhetoric and scaremongering, you forget that publishers are already dealing, effectively, with preowned sales on consoles with VIP codes and buying new incentives.

Sarcasm will only get you so far. The same goes with insults. Make your point and move on. I want to have an intelligent conversation here, but if you turn it personal, there will be consequences.

I am not scare mongering. If anything, I see things more deeply than most normal people. I see the outcome as it will be once the smoke clears. That smoke may last 7 or 8 moves too, but the fact is that most people can only see 2 or 3 turns deep.

Consoles have physical media. Digital goods are not physical and can be reproduced easily. That's the issue with reselling digital goods or intellectual property. The other points have already been made in other points already outlined in this post.


Point 5.
Quote:
Right, so show me pirated games working on Steam? Can't do it? Thought not. ALso, show me the lack of pirated games on the Xbox? PS3? No? Can't do it? Thought not. It's a simple solution and being obtuse about it isn't doing anything. You own a game on Steam (yeah, you own it - no, not that ridiculusly and purposefully obtuse way of saying "nah you don't own thier game blah blah", no you OWN that particular copy. It's YOURS. Not the IP, just that copy. Get that straight) and you want to sell it to your buddy, or some random person. You agree a price with them through what ever means. Initiate the transaction from within Steam. Both parties agree, Steam lifts the key off your account and places it onto theirs. How the hell does that translate to being able to pirate and all the rest?

Lose the tone. If you're not going to discuss things with me civilly, then drop out of the conversation.

The reason piracy exists is because people believe that they should not have to pay for the work of others. Steam is nothing more than a vessel for carrying media and can be bypassed. You own a license for each game on steam. You do NOT own the game itself. This has been proven time and time again and is even outlined in the Steam TOS.

Keys can be spoofed. All it takes is to have a secondary key (gotten through whatever means you see necessary) and you have your game back. However, you've now made money off of something that isn't yours. Explain to me why you think a system where the consumer can stand to profit of someone else's work is ever an acceptable practice.


Point 6.
Quote:
The point about hardware was to ullustrate why consoles are more popular - it's not because they have or don't have preowned games as someone else mentioned.

Consoles are more popular because they are cheaper and very easy to set up. Moving on.


Point 7.
Quote:
And this is just flat out ridiculous and not even right. The next time I create something and you BUY it from me then it's yours. If I make a million of them and you buy one, that's yours. You can do what you want with it. If you TAKE anything that's mine that's stealing. You ahve absolutely no grip on this conversation or what's going on and this point you failed ot make shows that. This isn't about piracy. This is about taking a COPY of a game that YOU OWN and selling it. Once you have sold it, the new person owns it, they can use it and you cannot. Just like ANYTHING else. If you sell a car you can't keep using it. IF you sell a guitar, you can't keep using it. EQUALLY (and it does NOT matter that it's digital or not) if you sell your COPY of a game that you OWN, you CAN'T keep using it because you no longer have. If it's not on your Steam/Origin/whatever, you can't use it!

You're taking physical object and making it sound like it is equal to digital goods or intellectual property. You simply cannot compare them, and the reason for this has been beat to death: digital goods can be reproduced easily, and physical goods cannot.

If you decide to respond to this post, do so in a civil manor. The insults and crap slinging are not appreciated.
Edited by Mad Pistol - 2/1/13 at 5:32pm
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post #210 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post

Many people do not "choose" to use steam or any other dd client, sometimes they are forced into using it, even if they buy a physical copy of the game alot more games nowdays are tied to steam, even if its not a valve title. They cannot even resell their physical copy because it has no worth, its just disks; the cdkey is locked on steam.

Since we are paying for licenses, why are they charging us 60$ and 50$ for it? Also please do not bring steam sales into this, those are at least a year later to see those type of prices, if it was a console game you could probably buy it used for that price and you would own it and still be able to resell it.
The thing is there are very few games out there that do not require steam, origin or uplay and the list is only getting shorter, look at the amount of non valve games that require steam its atrocious.

You make the decision to play the game, no one is forcing you to do so. You buying a game that requires Steam activation ( or other DD ) is only enforcing things to continue on the way they are because they know they can get away with it. You want games that don't require Steam or other DRM then go to the publishers and request that they release a non DRM version. And vote with your wallet, don't buy into the system and enforce it.

It is a privilege to buy a game, it is a privilege the play a game, it is not a right. Don't agree to the services terms? Don't use that service. Plain and simple. If you can't play the games you want to because of that, then oh well. I miss out on some games too because I refuse to buy games from Origin and uPlay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post

fact is, according to subscriber agreements. u don't own any game on steam. they're simply indefinite subscriptions, like rent, that will end if steam dies or if valves decides it wants to close your account
so yea. this is why i buy all new games on DVDs

Valve has said a few times now that if Steam dies then they'll release a patch to allow you to play your games still. tongue.gif
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