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[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 22

post #211 of 503
Doesn't Valve have something in their EULA stating purchases are digital and non transferable, and when you make the purchase you agree to this?
post #212 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

You continue to use physical goods as an example for your points. That is highly illogical. Physical goods are not intellectual property. Period. You cannot compare the two. One is easy to reproduce, the other is not. The one that is easy to reproduce (intellectual property, i.e. games) must be protected, otherwise the general populace will exploit it. This has been proven time and time again with the issues dealing with piracy.

Also, if this issue is so simple, why does this thread already have 200 posts on it? The issue is as clear as mud.

Point 1.
Circle of economics:

Somebody creates something -> said person sells the creation -> a consumer buys the creation -> consumer creates their own creation (or goes to work to help make the creation).

It's a never ending cycle. If you increase the cost at any point during that process, the price for EVERYONE goes up. This is simple logic.

Point 2.
Software is a massive gray area. Just the issue with licenses being sold will have to be completely reworked, and when that happens, the terms will change to put more restrictions on the consumer. Us as consumers (even in parts of the world outside the jurisdiction of the EU) will still lose. This will not fix anything; it will create more problems.

Point 3.
Every warrantied item in the world is now a target if this policy comes to fruition (warranties are non-transferable unless the warranty explicitly explains that it is.) I have read the ruling, and it's about as clear as mud. So much is left open for interpretation.

Point 4.

You continue to use physical goods as an example for your points. That is highly illogical. Physical goods are not intellectual property. Period. You cannot compare the two. One is easy to reproduce, the other is not. The one that is easy to reproduce (intellectual property, i.e. games) must be protected, otherwise the general populace will exploit it. This has been proven time and time again with the issues dealing with piracy.

Also, if this issue is so simple, why does this thread already have 200 posts on it? The issue is as clear as mud.

Point 1.
Circle of economics:

Somebody creates something -> said person sells the creation -> a consumer buys the creation -> consumer creates their own creation (or goes to work to help make the creation).

It's a never ending cycle. If you increase the cost at any point during that process, the price for EVERYONE goes up. This is simple logic.

Point 2.
Software is a massive gray area. Just the issue with licenses being sold will have to be completely reworked, and when that happens, the terms will change to put more restrictions on the consumer. Us as consumers (even in parts of the world outside the jurisdiction of the EU) will still lose. This will not fix anything; it will create more problems.

Point 3.
Every warrantied item in the world is now a target if this policy comes to fruition (warranties are non-transferable unless the warranty explicitly explains that it is.) I have read the ruling, and it's about as clear as mud. So much is left open for interpretation.

Point 4.
Sarcasm will only get you so far. The same goes with insults. Make your point and move on. I want to have an intelligent conversation here, but if you turn it personal, there will be consequences.

I am not scare mongering. If anything, I see things more deeply than most normal people. I see the outcome as it will be once the smoke clears. That smoke may last 7 or 8 moves too, but the fact is that most people can only see 2 or 3 turns deep.

Consoles have physical media. Digital goods are not physical and can be reproduced easily. That's the issue with reselling digital goods or intellectual property. The other points have already been made in other points already outlined in this post.


Point 5.
Lose the tone. If you're not going to discuss things with me civilly, then drop out of the conversation.

The reason piracy exists is because people believe that they should not have to pay for the work of others. Steam is nothing more than a vessel for carrying media and can be bypassed. You own a license for each game on steam. You do NOT own the game itself. This has been proven time and time again and is even outlined in the Steam TOS.

Keys can be spoofed. All it takes is to have a secondary key (gotten through whatever means you see necessary) and you have your game back. However, you've now made money off of something that isn't yours. Explain to me why you think a system where the consumer can stand to profit of someone else's work is ever an acceptable practice.


Point 6.
Consoles are more popular because they are cheaper and very easy to set up. Moving on.


Point 7.
You're taking physical object and making it sound like it is equal to digital goods or intellectual property. You simply cannot compare them, and the reason for this has been beat to death: digital goods can be reproduced easily, and physical goods cannot.

If you decide to respond to this post, do so in a civil manor. The insults and crap slinging are not appreciated.

You keep on talking about physical good and none physical good.
Let's go to the most basic physical good.
CD, DVD and Blue Ray Movie.
They are still making a profit, even with the supposed piracy at an all time high.
post #213 of 503
~MadPistol

I'm done. I can't be bothered with your obfuscating the issue and generally being wrong. The issue is clear. The EU says you can resell, therefore that's that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post

fact is, according to subscriber agreements. u don't own any game on steam. they're simply indefinite subscriptions, like rent, that will end if steam dies or if valves decides it wants to close your account
so yea. this is why i buy all new games on DVDs

Fact is, you own the licence.
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post #214 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

You make the decision to play the game, no one is forcing you to do so. You buying a game that requires Steam activation ( or other DD ) is only enforcing things to continue on the way they are because they know they can get away with it. You want games that don't require Steam or other DRM then go to the publishers and request that they release a non DRM version. And vote with your wallet, don't buy into the system and enforce it.

It is a privilege to buy a game, it is a privilege the play a game, it is not a right. Don't agree to the services terms? Don't use that service. Plain and simple. If you can't play the games you want to because of that, then oh well. I miss out on some games too because I refuse to buy games from Origin and uPlay.
Valve has said a few times now that if Steam dies then they'll release a patch to allow you to play your games still. tongue.gif

Just because you don't need the product doesn't mean that the company gets to violate consumer rights.

You don't need an movies either right? Those are just a privilege wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by L D4WG View Post

Doesn't Valve have something in their EULA stating purchases are digital and non transferable, and when you make the purchase you agree to this?

EULAs don't override laws.
 
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post #215 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

Point 7.
You're taking physical object and making it sound like it is equal to digital goods or intellectual property. You simply cannot compare them, and the reason for this has been beat to death: digital goods can be reproduced easily, and physical goods cannot..

People keep using physical products because the concept of second-hand sales should be the same for both of them. The ease or difficulty of reproducing the object doesn't matter. No one is saying we should be able to make additional copies of the game, only that we should be able to transfer the single copy we have.
post #216 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by L D4WG View Post

Doesn't Valve have something in their EULA stating purchases are digital and non transferable, and when you make the purchase you agree to this?

EULA doesn't supersede law, though. So, if a law says Valve can't do that, they can write whatever they want in their EULA, doesn't make it legal.
 
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post #217 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

EULAs don't override laws.

Laws are only ever effective when enforced.

So far, one single country within the entire EU has actually attempted to enforce said law.
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post #218 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Laws are only ever effective when enforced.

So far, one single country within the entire EU has actually attempted to enforce said law.

Yeah, so lot's not bother, then?

facepalm.gif
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post #219 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

The reality is that you own the licence. It is your licence. Valve do not have a massive pile of licences that Gabe Newell sleeps on like a greedy dragon.

Also, where is the licence in physical games? It's the thing you skip over and click"next" on like everything else.
10 years? Come on, I bought a preowned copy of Crysis Warhead a couple of years ago. And guess what? It works fine.

There won't be any charge and there is zero need for publishers to make new keys. The game is lifted from one digital account to another. It's paperless and would take little time.

Did you even read my reply? I acknowledged that there is no cost. I completely understand, and have always understood, that implementing this system will cost little (is any) money.

That is not the issue. The issue is that publishers are going to believe they are losing revenue, as they will perceive used game sales as lost sales.
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post #220 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

Yes indeed. As much as I like Steam I do think people should have the option to transfer games. Really all anyone is asking here is the possibility to transfer a game form one steam account to another. Its not like valve needs or even should have to have a full built in used games sale system.

The problem with this is... it'd be no different than piracy.
1 person bought it and passed it along, and along, and along, and along.
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