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[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 26

post #251 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

It is not in any way or form piracy. Piracy aka copyright infringement is the unauthorized use of works protected by copyright. When you buy a game on steam you are given a single licence and with that licence you are authorized to use that software and even duplicate it with in the limits of the law.

What is being discussed is the fact that that single licence should be resealable/transferable by German law but currently steam (and other) game licenses cannot be. So steam is in essence by operating in Germany breaking consumer rights laws and this is the reason they are being sued.

Companies can not pick and chose which laws to follow just like a normal citizen can't. A citizen must respect the copyright laws or face the consequences and companies must respect the consumer rights laws or face the consequences.

Except it would be absolutely no different when it comes to developers losing income, there's nothing stopping me buying playing and handing it to a buddy and he does the same ad infinatum.
It is no different than piracy when it comes to devs.

Except this way I'd be making money from the devs work instead of them making money from it.
post #252 of 503
Excellent news. Valve is getting greedy. How about designing a game with an updated engine?
post #253 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwnedINC View Post

Except it would be absolutely no different when it comes to developers losing income, there's nothing stopping me buying playing and handing it to a buddy and he does the same ad infinatum.
It is no different than piracy when it comes to devs.

Except this way I'd be making money from the devs work instead of them making money from it.

Why should they have any claim on any future sales when no one else does? Authors don't get a cut of books that are resold, artists don't get a cut of estate auctions, Intel doesn't get a cut of second-hand CPU sales. What makes game developers special?
post #254 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Why should they have any claim on any future sales when no one else does? Authors don't get a cut of books that are resold, artists don't get a cut of estate auctions, Intel doesn't get a cut of second-hand CPU sales. What makes game developers special?
Digital goods have zero degradation. There's a difference. A game 15 years later is the exact same game as there is no physical shelf life that degrades the product. If I rush through a game on launch day and sell it before the night is over, I probably lost $15 dollars on it, and the person who bought it didn't send any money to the developers despite buying it on launch day. If I do the same with a book, there's physical degradation of the book, even if it's just as minor as a creased spine or the loss of the "new book smell".

What makes developers special? The fact that there is no difference between a used and a new product, especially when no disc is involved. There's zero incentive to buy new when you know the used is in perfect condition. Used game sales are far more toxic than piracy to the game industry, and if you've paid attention, DRM has attacked both.
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post #255 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

Digital goods have zero degradation. There's a difference. A game 15 years later is the exact same game as there is no physical shelf life that degrades the product. If I rush through a game on launch day and sell it before the night is over, I probably lost $15 dollars on it, and the person who bought it didn't send any money to the developers despite buying it on launch day. If I do the same with a book, there's physical degradation of the book, even if it's just as minor as a creased spine or the loss of the "new book smell".

What makes developers special? The fact that there is no difference between a used and a new product, especially when no disc is involved. There's zero incentive to buy new when you know the used is in perfect condition. Used game sales are far more toxic than piracy to the game industry, and if you've paid attention, DRM has attacked both.

So you don't own anything you buy digitally, because it doesn't degrade?
post #256 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwnedINC View Post

Except it would be absolutely no different when it comes to developers losing income, there's nothing stopping me buying playing and handing it to a buddy and he does the same ad infinatum.
It is no different than piracy when it comes to devs.

Except this way I'd be making money from the devs work instead of them making money from it.

That is the way it works. If you can wait around to pick it up used then by all means do so and save yourself some cash. What about those guys who buy tons of collector edition items to turn around and sell them for 2-4x over what the devs were asking for them and there isn't anything wrong about it. This recently happened with "Ni No Kuni", problem being in this case one online supplier had tons of collectors edition items and other retail suppliers somehow managed to oversell the amount of collector edition items they had in stock. The point here is people should be able to do whatever they wish with the items they own. These digital formats are removing our ownership over our goods which isn't right. We are paying full price to rent games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxDDS View Post

I think if I were Steam, I'd just charge $10 to transfer a key and call it overhead costs. This would weed out all the tedious transferring of cheap games because people are trying to save 50 cents. The more I think about it, maybe MORE PC games would sell on release if people thought they could get a good return used? I'm 100% positive developers (and Valve) would rather sell 10 $60 copies than 50 $5 copies.

If they did this and changed the term of service so that you actually own your games I'd be all for it. I'm no hacker/botter but if I ever did try to experience that it wouldn't be fair if I lost my entire steam account with all my games while someone else who brought it retail only lost his/her online pass to that game.

I'm hoping that these lawsuits become common place. We should be moving forward and embracing the freedom of digital entertainment but instead the producers are doing all they can to prevent us from actually enjoying that freedom part.

Things I would love about digital sales if they were done right:

1) Nothing to recycle. No box, manual or anything.

2) Takes up no space. Easy to store, hard to lose(fire, break- ins, etc.)

3) Devs set their own prices. I would love for us to get further away from the fix cost of games. In the PC world of gaming console license fee and other restrictions/fees don't play a row in this. If someone wants to release a game costing 120 dollar then by all means go for it if they feel people will actually buy it at that price.

4) Freedom of use anywhere we wish. Require a single online log in per a machine to upload the game/movie to it and allow up to say 3 or maybe 5 machines per an item or account with the ease of being able to go online and disable/add new machines at any time without having to ask anyone else to do it for us.

5) Resells are easier and less risk if handled by a third party. Submit key, check key along with another form of checking, wait for buyer to submit payment asked and then release the game to the buyer and the money to the seller. Change said key for new buyer so that the old seller keys no longer work. Couldn't ask for an easier experience. Some people will discover that they could sell their games and play it offline possible ruining the experience for all the actual paying users but pirates are going to find a way to get your game unless you lock it down so tight that it hurts sells. I find it better to turn a blind eye to it and focus on making the experience a overall positive one.

6) Bans work like they use to. User abusive a forum, they lose access to the forum and not their games. Cheating in a online game, ban their ability to play online and have it clearly marked that this key can't be used for online play.

I actually don't see why consoles couldn't get in on this as well. I for one would only buy digital media content if I could have the freedom to do what I want with it.
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post #257 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

Digital goods have zero degradation. There's a difference.

Not always true.

Even if it was it would be completely and utterly irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

A game 15 years later is the exact same game as there is no physical shelf life that degrades the product. If I rush through a game on launch day and sell it before the night is over, I probably lost $15 dollars on it, and the person who bought it didn't send any money to the developers despite buying it on launch day. If I do the same with a book, there's physical degradation of the book, even if it's just as minor as a creased spine or the loss of the "new book smell".

This is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard.

I have physical games, and physical books that are 20+ years old that are in mint condition (and most are worth more now than they were new). I have tools that look like new that were manufactured fifty years before I was born. Many of these things will outlast Steam, Valve, and the hard drives and flash memory I have crap backed up on.

Physical or otherwise, there is no difference. There are still a limited number of items/licenses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

What makes developers special? The fact that there is no difference between a used and a new product, especially when no disc is involved.

Not always true, and again, meaningless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

There's zero incentive to buy new when you know the used is in perfect condition.

I have used physical objects in better condition than the typical new sample. So this point is nonsense as well.

People buy new to have something before used ones become prevalent, because they want a warranty, or because they are insane and think that used vs. new is some how inherently different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

Used game sales are far more toxic than piracy to the game industry, and if you've paid attention, DRM has attacked both.

Also completely beyond the point.

The same could be said for the sales of used physical products or durable goods. Used home sales are bad for homebuilders. Used car sales bad for car makers. Used books bad for publishers...

The fact that it's bad for the creators does not give them the right to tell me what I can or cannot do with something in my possession.
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post #258 of 503
Very interesting. I like Valve, but I want them to lose this one.
post #259 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

Digital goods have zero degradation. There's a difference. A game 15 years later is the exact same game as there is no physical shelf life that degrades the product. If I rush through a game on launch day and sell it before the night is over, I probably lost $15 dollars on it, and the person who bought it didn't send any money to the developers despite buying it on launch day. If I do the same with a book, there's physical degradation of the book, even if it's just as minor as a creased spine or the loss of the "new book smell".

What makes developers special? The fact that there is no difference between a used and a new product, especially when no disc is involved. There's zero incentive to buy new when you know the used is in perfect condition. Used game sales are far more toxic than piracy to the game industry, and if you've paid attention, DRM has attacked both.

Not really. Ever try to play an old game? You'll almost always come across software and or hardware incompatibilities that make actually plaing the game like it was supposed to be played harder. And the time it takes for a game to start having problems with new hardware/software is really short compared to the time some physical goods last.

Also books degrading is the same as a physical DVD box degrading. The contents of the book/DVD are still the exact same just like with purely digital goods.
 
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post #260 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

The fact that it's bad for the creators does not give them the right to tell me what I can or cannot do with something in my possession.
It's not in your possession, that's the difference. If I get a gym membership (at most gyms), I can't sell/give that membership to a friend, they have to buy their own. Same concept.

However, even if Valve loses this because of a shortsighted judge/jury, all that will happen is games will be piecemealed into an excruciatingly base core game and significant amounts of Day 1 DLC that uses codes to unlock. Think Mass Effect Promethean DLC inverted. All this content split off the game will be considered additional content and it'll require another lawsuit to make that transferable.

Protip- in the longterm, if it's bad for the game industry, it's bad for gamers.
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