Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Video Game News › [PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 32

post #311 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

You are still missing the point.

So what happens if an American buys a Steam game in the US, then sells it to a EU citizen? Does the EU citizen INSTANTLY get the EU rights, even though Steam didn't sell it to a European? Why should THEY be the ones to be FORCED to comply with EU law when THEY didn't sell it in the EU?

The EXACT SAME questions apply when someone in the EU buys a game from Steam and then turns around and sells it to an American. Does the American lose those EU rights, or is Steam FORCED to apply the EU law to an American even though THEY never sold it to an American?

Now do you understand my Iran example?

Understand now the ramifications of this?

Well, my understanding would be that

1. Unless the US enacts their own selling rights the the US citizen wouldn't be able to sell it at all. Problem solved.

2. Steam could very easily limit the sale to EU customers only and be adhering to the law. Problem solved.

And yes, if you did buy a game in the EU and sold it to an American, the America would lose the EU rights... because they're not an EU citizen. And yes, if an American sold a game to an EU citizen, they gain resale rights on that game because they're an EU citizen. The American loses nothing because they never had resale rights in the first place. No-one is being forced into doing anything.

No, your Iran argument is invalid and irrelevant. It doesn't make any sense and is out of context.

The ramifications are simple. In the EU you can resell your games. I don't understand why you don't get that... You won't be able to sell them in America, or elsewhere, but you will in the EU. There will be no EU rights force don US citizens or anything like that. Laws made in the EU do not affect laws in the US, they don't affect the rights of the US and vice versa.

It's not a difficult thing to grasp!
The Riginator
(20 items)
 
 
Wife's Rig
(5 items)
 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Qualcomm Snapdragon S600 Adreno 330 2GB LPDDR3 NAND Storage 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Samsung 32GB MicroSD Android 4.4.2 KitKat 5 inch (441ppi) 1080x1920 Super AMOLED SwiftKey 
Power
2600mAh Battery 
  hide details  
Reply
The Riginator
(20 items)
 
 
Wife's Rig
(5 items)
 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Qualcomm Snapdragon S600 Adreno 330 2GB LPDDR3 NAND Storage 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Samsung 32GB MicroSD Android 4.4.2 KitKat 5 inch (441ppi) 1080x1920 Super AMOLED SwiftKey 
Power
2600mAh Battery 
  hide details  
Reply
post #312 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyHeaven View Post

Can someone explain to me how reselling games is bad for business.

Because the company that made the game (or resells it, in the case of Steam) doesn't get a penny.

If person A buys a game for $10, then Company A gets $10. If person A then sells it to person B for $5, Company A gets nothing, and since person B *might* have bought the game, Company A loses out on a possible sale for $10. Then there is nothing stopping Person B to sell it to Person C, then D, then E, then F, then G.

With a real world items like a car, this isn't a big deal because a car gets physically worn out over time and will eventually fail. With software, this NEVER happens. If perpetual sales are done, then the ONLY thing stopping a program from being bought and resold over and over and over again is loss of interest (which real world items also have to deal with).
post #313 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

You are still missing the point.

So what happens if an American buys a Steam game in the US, then sells it to a EU citizen? Does the EU citizen INSTANTLY get the EU rights, even though Steam didn't sell it to a European? Why should THEY be the ones to be FORCED to comply with EU law when THEY didn't sell it in the EU?

The EXACT SAME questions apply when someone in the EU buys a game from Steam and then turns around and sells it to an American. Does the American lose those EU rights, or is Steam FORCED to apply the EU law to an American even though THEY never sold it to an American?

Now do you understand my Iran example?

Understand now the ramifications of this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

See above.

Well first of all, steam has no reason to enable the feature in the US so I don't think that someone from the US reselling a license to an EU citizen is (or should) be possible at the moment considering the laws.

And as for the warranty stuff etc. I would think that they do not have to follow the rules because the sale was 2nd hand. Same thing as someone from the EU buying a US based item from Ebay. The buyer is not entitled to any EU regulated warranty or stuff like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post


With a real world items like a car, this isn't a big deal because a car gets physically worn out over time and will eventually fail. With software, this NEVER happens. If perpetual sales are done, then the ONLY thing stopping a program from being bought and resold over and over and over again is loss of interest (which real world items also have to deal with).

Games lose their compatibility with current devices much faster than say a book gets worn out.
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
post #314 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

And yes, if an American sold a game to an EU citizen, they gain resale rights on that game because they're an EU citizen. The American loses nothing because they never had resale rights in the first place. No-one is being forced into doing anything.

Yes, someone is being forced ... Steam. They are forced to do something. They now have to facilitate and maintain (for free) a method of allowing these transfers and support the game forever just because a European bought a game from a non-European and they didn't make a penny off that sale.
post #315 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Yes, someone is being forced ... Steam. They are forced to do something. They now have to facilitate and maintain (for free) a method of allowing these transfers and support the game forever just because a European bought a game from a non-European and they didn't make a penny off that sale.

The whole situation is nonsense since EU citizens are the ones who should have the resale option, if americans could resell their games to the EU there would be no problem.

However, I don't see how the company would have to do anything other than offer the service they offer in america for a person who is buying a 2nd hand american copy. They don't even have to adhere to laws anymore because Steam isn't the seller at that point anymore.
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
post #316 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

The whole situation is nonsense since EU citizens are the ones who should have the resale option, if americans could resell their games to the EU there would be no problem.

However, I don't see how the company would have to do anything other than offer the service they offer in america for a person who is buying a 2nd hand american copy. They don't even have to adhere to laws anymore because Steam isn't the seller at that point anymore.

So the EU law says that the sales only have be enforced when the sales is done only between EU citizens in the EU countries? I don't think so.

They don't offer the service in America (as far as I know), but now they will be forced to develop one in the EU for EU citizens ... then it opens the door to another set of issues.

Yes, we know Steam wouldn't be the seller at that point any more, but they have to spend time and money to MAINTAIN THE ownership transference. Thus they suffer the burden without making a penny on the sale.

Unless you are saying that ONLY the download is transferred and if the new buyer loses it, they CAN NOT go to steam and download it again ... even though they are the "legal" owner of the game. And that too, opens another can of worms. Like how to you PROVE that you are the legal owner of software if you don't have at least the email from the person you bought it from (who may or may not be a Nigerian Price) and be forced to take their word that THEY are the legal owner of the game.
post #317 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

So the EU law says that the sales only have be enforced when the sales is done only between EU citizens in the EU countries? I don't think so.

They don't offer the service in America (as far as I know), but now they will be forced to develop one in the EU for EU citizens ... then it opens the door to another set of issues.

Yes, we know Steam wouldn't be the seller at that point any more, but they have to spend time and money to MAINTAIN THE ownership transference. Thus they suffer the burden without making a penny on the sale.

Unless you are saying that ONLY the download is transferred and if the new buyer loses it, they CAN NOT go to steam and download it again ... even though they are the "legal" owner of the game. And that too, opens another can of worms. Like how to you PROVE that you are the legal owner of software if you don't have at least the email from the person you bought it from (who may or may not be a Nigerian Price) and be forced to take their word that THEY are the legal owner of the game.

Just about the only thing steam has to offer for the person who buys the license 2nd hand is being able to download the game from their servers when necessary. That's not a problem when the original owner can't DL the game anymore due to him/her not owning the license anymore. The service that they offer for the product gets transferred with the 2nd hand sale, it doesn't matter who is then using the service, for steam/valve it's all the same.
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
post #318 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Just about the only thing steam has to offer for the person who buys the license 2nd hand is being able to download the game from their servers when necessary. That's not a problem when the original owner can't DL the game anymore due to him/her not owning the license anymore. The service that they offer for the product gets transferred with the 2nd hand sale, it doesn't matter who is then using the service, for steam/valve it's all the same.

And since Steam isn't actually handling the transfer of the game, they now have to change their entire software model and allow anyone to download anything just because someone SAYS they have the key that they bought from someone else and not through Steam.

Am I understanding you correctly?

It's one thing if Steam is in the middle of the sale and can control it (and hopefully get reimbursed for their time and trouble), but it's another thing entirely if they have to provide bandwidth and a method to allow for a download that they didn't make a penny off of just because "someone says that they bought the game from someone else".

To me, it basically sounds like Steam is being asked to become a possible pirate site hosting service.
Edited by 47 Knucklehead - 2/2/13 at 10:22am
post #319 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

And since Steam isn't actually handling the transfer of the game, they now have to change their entire software model and allow anyone to download anything just because someone SAYS they have the key that they bought from someone else and not through Steam.

Am I understanding you correctly?

It's one thing if Steam is in the middle of the sale and can control it (and hopefully get reimbursed for their time and trouble), but it's another thing entirely if they have to provide bandwidth and a method to allow for a download that they didn't make a penny off of.

No, they have to offer the ability to download a game when someone registers a valid steam key. (and have a system in place of transferring that key, which is what this lawsuit is about).

Just like when someone registers a retail steam key. Steam didn't actually get any direct money from the sale but they have to offer the service.
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
post #320 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Because the company that made the game (or resells it, in the case of Steam) doesn't get a penny.

If person A buys a game for $10, then Company A gets $10. If person A then sells it to person B for $5, Company A gets nothing, and since person B *might* have bought the game, Company A loses out on a possible sale for $10. Then there is nothing stopping Person B to sell it to Person C, then D, then E, then F, then G.

With a real world items like a car, this isn't a big deal because a car gets physically worn out over time and will eventually fail. With software, this NEVER happens. If perpetual sales are done, then the ONLY thing stopping a program from being bought and resold over and over and over again is loss of interest (which real world items also have to deal with).

The company should not get any money from a second hand sale. Yes, they might lose some money on sales, but then they can also include VIP vouchers and first sale only incentives like they already do on preowned console games.

That's the massive problem with the "company A will lose money and not see anything from the resale" argument. Apart form the fact that there is no reason for them to see any money from a resale... that consoles gamers have been reselling games for over 20 years... and they're still the biggest market.
The Riginator
(20 items)
 
 
Wife's Rig
(5 items)
 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Qualcomm Snapdragon S600 Adreno 330 2GB LPDDR3 NAND Storage 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Samsung 32GB MicroSD Android 4.4.2 KitKat 5 inch (441ppi) 1080x1920 Super AMOLED SwiftKey 
Power
2600mAh Battery 
  hide details  
Reply
The Riginator
(20 items)
 
 
Wife's Rig
(5 items)
 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Qualcomm Snapdragon S600 Adreno 330 2GB LPDDR3 NAND Storage 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Samsung 32GB MicroSD Android 4.4.2 KitKat 5 inch (441ppi) 1080x1920 Super AMOLED SwiftKey 
Power
2600mAh Battery 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Video Game News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Video Game News › [PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership