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[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 33

post #321 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

That's the massive problem with the "company A will lose money and not see anything from the resale" argument. Apart form the fact that there is no reason for them to see any money from a resale... that consoles gamers have been reselling games for over 20 years... and they're still the biggest market.

But with a console game, unlike a steam game, the media invariably gets lost, scratched, or otherwise damaged and has to be replaced. A Steam game, NEVER will suffer that fate.

Further, because of the way the law is worded, Steam will basically have to provide this service for all games FOREVER. All a console game maker has to deal with is as long as the game is actively made. If Company A no longer makes Game A, then they can't reasonably be expected to provide a replacement for Game A ... but since this is a pure digital copy, which never wears out, Steam is now being expected to provide a method to manage the endless number of transfers and downloads forever.
post #322 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

But with a console game, unlike a steam game, the media invariably gets lost, scratched, or otherwise damaged and has to be replaced. A Steam game, NEVER will suffer that fate.

DVDs/Blu-rays wont suffer that fate in any reasonable timeframe, the systems used to run the games will give out much before that and the same problem goes for digital games.
Quote:
Further, because of the way the law is worded, Steam will basically have to provide this service for all games FOREVER. All a console game maker has to deal with is as long as the game is actively made. If Company A no longer makes Game A, then they can't reasonably be expected to provide a replacement for Game A ... but since this is a pure digital copy, which never wears out, Steam is now being expected to provide a method to manage the endless number of transfers and downloads forever.

Steam already has to provide indefinite service for their games now. The code switching owners makes no difference since they guarantee their customer the ability to download their game whenever the customer wants.

And depending on the system they would not have to provide the transfer themselves. They could just have a system where the game is deactivated on the account it was bought for by the user, the user gets the key, sells it and then it can be activated again on another account. The transaction itself, as well as the transferring of the key had nothing to do with steam in that case. They only have to continue to provide the ability to download the game.
 
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post #323 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

But with a console game, unlike a steam game, the media invariably gets lost, scratched, or otherwise damaged and has to be replaced. A Steam game, NEVER will suffer that fate.

Further, because of the way the law is worded, Steam will basically have to provide this service for all games FOREVER. All a console game maker has to deal with is as long as the game is actively made. If Company A no longer makes Game A, then they can't reasonably be expected to provide a replacement for Game A ... but since this is a pure digital copy, which never wears out, Steam is now being expected to provide a method to manage the endless number of transfers and downloads forever.

Well, two problems with what you're saying:

1. Steam games are wholly digital? What about games like Deus Ex? Hitman? Skyrim? Those games bought at retail have media and are inexplicably linked to Steam. So,a Steam game will never suffer that fate, huh?

Here's the case I put forward, maybe you missed it. Two people want to make an exchange. For cash, or not. Whatever. To Valve, it doesn't matter. All that matters are the two people both agree and do whatever to indicate that. Valve lifts the game from one account and puts it on another. Once the game is moved, the new owner cannot use Steam to download the game, or save their data on the Steamcloud service. They still use Steam to play the game, but they must install it from some physical media. Either by the seller posting/giving the physical media that came with the game (in the case of my Skyrim and Deus Ex games) or the seller burns a Steam Backup copy to a disc for the new owner. If the new owner wants to download the game and use the Steam services, they pay Valve a fee for this right. Valve can charge whatever they want, there's nothing in the wording of the rulings that say how much they can charge and there probably will not be.

^ If the user doesn't want to put up with paying a fee to Steam, they have to put up with physical media to install their game. If they do, Valve gets something for their service TWICE. Valve are the ones providing the continuing service, not the publishers, so Valve are the ones getting the fee money. If the publishers have an unlock code for the multiplayer, then they can make money off that if the new user wants into the multi. Maybe they'll buy some DLC for it too.

2. No company has ever had to provide a replacement for a broken or misplaced game disc. They always charge for this service... just like above I outlined for Steam, that Valve could do. Steam managing transfers isn't a big deal nor is ti costly. Once a service is setup it can run automatically with little oversight (like the Steamguard login runs automatically). If there are any costs involved in implementing a system, which there invariably will be, then they could get a grant from the government to help them adhere to this new law and cover the costs that way.


Again. All you're doing is naysaying for the sake of it. There are plenty of opportunities for this to work that are legit and viable. There is no reason why games should be linked to your account forever.
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post #324 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

. They only have to continue to provide the ability to download the game.

See, with Steam Backup, or phsyical media in the retail games that come linked to Steam... there's no reason for them to have to provide the download service for free. They could easily charge for it and be in adherence with the law... as I mentioned above.
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post #325 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

DVDs/Blu-rays wont suffer that fate in any reasonable timeframe, the systems used to run the games will give out much before that and the same problem goes for digital games.

You obviously don't have kids or a dog. biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

2. No company has ever had to provide a replacement for a broken or misplaced game disc. They always charge for this service... just like above I outlined for Steam, that Valve could do.

Ok, then Steam could charge $39.99 per game to do the transfer, just to comply with the EU law. Right?

Sounds good to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

Again. All you're doing is naysaying for the sake of it. There are plenty of opportunities for this to work that are legit and viable. There is no reason why games should be linked to your account forever.

You mean aside from it helps to prevent stagnation and promotes what is known as the velocity of money? Trust me, I know plenty of people who are so cheap that if this was done, they would never buy a game from a company ever again. They would just go from place to place, paying $2 for a $50 game that someone got bored of and as less and less people bought games at full price, the quality of games would decline.

So no, I'm not just naysaying for the sake of it. I'm just looking at human nature and politicians beyond the headlines.
Edited by 47 Knucklehead - 2/2/13 at 11:02am
post #326 of 503
Sick and tired with unneccessary rehashing of the old "games are different" "IP IP", say it out loud... (mild pun intendend.
Games, Cars, Books all are physical objects. It doesn't matter if "code" deteriorates, HDD's do. Every game is bound to a medium and however long that medium lasts is irrelevant. If I hadn't spent the whole day in the E.R. with my 73 year old neighbour I would have been splitting woods with an axe made in 1897, sure the shaft is only 10 years old. But thats one big loss for the ones that held Bessemer steel, steam/pneumatic hammer IP rights.

Games are no different from anything and will never be, same laws apply. Buying a car doesn't allow you to utilize the IP to make copies and sell them. Same thing with video games. How easy it is to do doesn't matter at the least in any way whatsoever.
The word IP is at fault, the proper word to use would be: Immaterial rights. You own the thing, they own the patent and the knowledge behind it. but once they sold you the thing, you own it and thats that.
 
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post #327 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Ok, then Steam could charge $39.99 per game to do the transfer, just to comply with the EU law. Right?
no because they would be sued as this kind of fee would be unreasonable. and eu courts really love to hand out 100m penalties to corporations so they would think twice to pull something like that. i mean judge who will make judgement against valve could declare such action as contempt of court and fine them just based on that. 1-2 eur would be reasonable, ubisofts uplay has 6eur to let you download instalation files for 2 years after 30 days since registering game code ...

anyway this is not about elected politicians, this is about unelected judges, cause in eu we dont vote judges, they just multiply (in eastern europe they make judges from their kids) tongue.gif

best
revro
post #328 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Because the company that made the game (or resells it, in the case of Steam) doesn't get a penny.

If person A buys a game for $10, then Company A gets $10. If person A then sells it to person B for $5, Company A gets nothing, and since person B *might* have bought the game, Company A loses out on a possible sale for $10. Then there is nothing stopping Person B to sell it to Person C, then D, then E, then F, then G.

With a real world items like a car, this isn't a big deal because a car gets physically worn out over time and will eventually fail. With software, this NEVER happens. If perpetual sales are done, then the ONLY thing stopping a program from being bought and resold over and over and over again is loss of interest (which real world items also have to deal with).

I've only had 2 cars in my lifetime and they've all been 10 years plus in age with over 100k miles and I put in another 100k miles on both them and then resold one for more than my original cost of it. I have no problems getting older cars with good engines working just as good and if not better than some of the newer ones for a fraction of the cost of a new car. Take good care of a well made car and it should outlast gaming software which quickly becomes out of date. The graphics don't look nearly as good as they use to(10 years from now nobody will be talking about Crysis 1), and then we ran into compatibility issues as the game loses software support to run on the new OS's.

If person A buys 15 more 10 dollar games since he has the peace of mind that if the game doesn't work out he can still resell them then where is the lost to said companies? Say he sells 3 of those games to person B for 5 dollars but you still brought 12 more games than he otherwise would have. Then there is a good chance that Person B would buy more new games too since he can always sell some of those games to person C if he doesn't enjoy them. This could move a ton of more games making it a win win for all parties. I honestly believe that if Person A buys said new game and sells it to person B for whatever the reason(assuming the game is well made and person B really enjoys it) then person C, D, E, then G etc might not want to wait around to play so some of them will buy the new game too. Add in the risk of not being able to resale it and take the risk of none of them buying it. This risk is much higher for new companies who may not have the media power of the larger companies to push out more game sales.

Allowing the resale of games makes buying new games less risky. I couldn't be the only one who would be willing to buy a lot more games if it were possible to resale them. I actually enjoy collecting games but don't want anything in my collection that I didn't enjoy.
Edited by CrazyHeaven - 2/2/13 at 11:12am
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post #329 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

You obviously don't have kids or a dog. biggrin.gif
Ok, then Steam could charge $39.99 per game to do the transfer, just to comply with the EU law. Right?

Sounds good to me.
You mean aside from it helps to prevent stagnation and promotes what is known as the velocity of money? Trust me, I know plenty of people who are so cheap that if this was done, they would never buy a game from a company ever again. They would just go from place to place, paying $2 for a $50 game that someone got bored of and as less and less people bought games at full price, the quality of games would decline.

So no, I'm not just naysaying for the sake of it. I'm just looking at human nature and politicians beyond the headlines.

No, and now you're just being intentionally obtuse. A transfer fee wouldn't be lawful. at all as it restricts the right to freely transfer something you own. A fee to enable steam service son the second hand game would be fine. But a fee to transfer is not.
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post #330 of 503
This is really stupid. Who even thinks of selling digital games. I personally don't care about selling any of my games on my steam list. People will always have something stupid to fight about. and why pick on valve? pick on ea or ubisoft...
Edited by cvon2000 - 2/2/13 at 11:17am
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