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[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 39

post #381 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

Yeah and I've been saying that all along and using pure logic it's highly likely that this is what will happen. Steam have no obligation to provide you with the download at all. Just transfer the licence.

No-one is saying that Steam should transfer their service agreement to the new user. Just the licence to validate and play the game with their account. They should charge any new user who wants to use their service to download the game, use steamcloud, etc.

Actually, I don't even think that Steam should do that. Steam doesn't make games (well, many of them), they are simply a distributor of them. In my opinion, the people that should be responsible (and provide the work) for "License Transfer" is the software MAKER (ie 4A Games, Bioware, Sony Online, Dark Vale Games, etc) should be held to do this, not the DISTRIBUTOR.

I honestly think that the reason why the Germans are doing this to Steam is because they are a single large target, when in fact, they should be going after the actual MAKERS of the game, not the people who distribute it.

To me, that would be like suing Walmart when you cut your finger on a defective product made by Samsung. You should be blaming Samsung for making the defective product (or not supporting it), not Walmart.

Not an exact parallel, but I hope you get what I mean.
post #382 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Actually, I don't even think that Steam should do that. Steam doesn't make games (well, many of them), they are simply a distributor of them. In my opinion, the people that should be responsible (and provide the work) for "License Transfer" is the software MAKER (ie 4A Games, Bioware, Sony Online, Dark Vale Games, etc) should be held to do this, not the DISTRIBUTOR.

I honestly think that the reason why the Germans are doing this to Steam is because they are a single large target, when in fact, they should be going after the actual MAKERS of the game, not the people who distribute it.

To me, that would be like suing Walmart when you cut your finger on a defective product made by Samsung. You should be blaming Samsung for making the defective product (or not supporting it), not Walmart.

Not an exact parallel, but I hope you get what I mean.

This is what I've been trying to say all along. Steam is at the bottom of the chain of things to do. People don't have a problem with Steam per-say, they have a problem with the publisher wanting to lock down their games, but they're blaming the wrong person. They need to start at the top and work their way down the chain of command.

Steam can't legally release a licence for any game other than their own Source games. That decision is that of the publisher.
post #383 of 503
This should be targeting both the publishers (not the developers) and Steam, because how are you to play Steam Games without Valve facilitating the moving of a licence? If Steam is the chosen DRM then you are locked into Steam. Some games are not designed to be played any other way. Steam is a key factor and, sometimes, even the very format.
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post #384 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

This should be targeting both the publishers (not the developers) and Steam, because how are you to play Steam Games without Valve facilitating the moving of a licence? If Steam is the chosen DRM then you are locked into Steam. Some games are not designed to be played any other way. Steam is a key factor and, sometimes, even the very format.

If you were to go after the publishers to remove DRM ( or at least the specific DRM ), then Steam is not a factor in any way. The publishers will be forced to release the licenses and not use such DRM.

Let's say they win this and Steam DRM goes bye bye, well then the Publishers will just choose another digital distribution platform with their own DRM. And someone will have to go after that one, then the publishers will move to another and another and eventually end up making their own such as Origin and uPlay are to EA and Ubi. But all roads lead back to going straight to the publishers and saying "hey, you can't have this kind of DRM ". Everything until that moment is wasted money on everyone's behalf.

Whether the DRM software exists or not, as long as there is a law saying it can't be used, then that DRM plays no role and is not a factor.
post #385 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

If you were to go after the publishers to remove DRM ( or at least the specific DRM ), then Steam is not a factor in any way. The publishers will be forced to release the licenses and not use such DRM.

Let's say they win this and Steam DRM goes bye bye, well then the Publishers will just choose another digital distribution platform with their own DRM. And someone will have to go after that one, then the publishers will move to another and another and eventually end up making their own such as Origin and uPlay are to EA and Ubi. But all roads lead back to going straight to the publishers and saying "hey, you can't have this kind of DRM ". Everything until that moment is wasted money on everyone's behalf.

This winning doesn't mean that DRM has to go. Why do you think that? This is nothing to do with DRM, just transferring a licence. DRM is absolutely key to this working effectively.
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post #386 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

This winning doesn't mean that DRM has to go. Why do you think that? This is nothing to do with DRM, just transferring a licence. DRM is absolutely key to this working effectively.

Non-transfer-ability of the key IS the DRM in question.

DRM isn't just one thing, there are many forms of DRM and non-transfer-ability of keys is one and a specific form of it.
post #387 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Non-transfer-ability of the key IS the DRM in question.

DRM isn't just one thing, there are many forms of DRM and non-transfer-ability of keys is one and a specific form of it.

Right and the case of Steam, its the rights management of the right of one account to play the game. So transferring the game between two accounts directly involves steam and DRM is the key to making sure this can work and that only one account can be using one CDkey or authorisation code at once.

Steam are inextricably linked to all matters regarding it's service and the games on it.
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post #388 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

Right and the case of Steam, its the rights management of the right of one account to play the game. So transferring the game between two accounts directly involves steam and DRM is the key to making sure this can work and that only one account can be using one CDkey or authorisation code at once.

Steam are inextricably linked to all matters regarding it's service and the games on it.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I didn't say all DRM is the problem, nor did I say steam was. I said the specific transfer-ability of keys ( a single form of DRM that is most predominate in games today ) is the problem, and that is under the control of the publisher. The publisher is the one that chooses to allow or disallow keys to be transferred, else they would have chose a different ( or at least lesser ) DRM method.
post #389 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I didn't say all DRM is the problem, nor did I say steam was. I said the specific transfer-ability of keys ( a single form of DRM that is most predominate in games today ) is the problem, and that is under the control of the publisher. The publisher is the one that chooses to allow or disallow keys to be transferred, else they would have chose a different ( or at least lesser ) DRM method.

I know, I got ya wink.gif I was just saying that Steam are inextricably linked to this as they are also the other form of rights management in use also. Any game on Steam is pretty much linked to Steam. The easiest and best option is for Steam to be involve din this every step of the way, where games on their service are involved.

But yes of course, outside of that publishers also need to get in line, too. They'll, no doubt, be writing amicus briefs and throwing their horn in during the court cases.
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post #390 of 503
You're all arguing semantics.

The point of this is to force the publishers and valve to allow people to use their right to resell items, physical or digital. Today it's digital items that are being locked down, tomorrow it's physically items that you can't legally sell on. It's the erosion of your rights little by little that people are being upset about. The Americans have been experiencing this with the second amendment since 1936, then in 1968, 1986, and hopefully not to be 2013.

As soon as you let these governments or corporations start taking away ANY of your rights, they will not stop. It will end in revolution (of the market, or even civil war)

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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