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[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 41

post #401 of 503
This whole argument is tired, ridiculous, and utterly circular.

Can anyone in here honestly tell me that they still play every video game they've ever purchased? No. For the vast majority of the games owned by the vast majority of people, once a game is beaten, it's done. It's not like a chair or a shirt, where you use it over and over and over and over.

People keep saying "I purchased it, I should be able to do whatever I want with it!" Well, yeah, you purchase movie and concert tickets too. Does this consumer rights ruling mean that if you purchase a single ticket, you're allowed to record the show, bring it home, and show it to your entire family?

Maybe that's the next thing that should be declared against consumer rights.
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post #402 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBrogbo View Post


People keep saying "I purchased it, I should be able to do whatever I want with it!" Well, yeah, you purchase movie and concert tickets too. Does this consumer rights ruling mean that if you purchase a single ticket, you're allowed to record the show, bring it home, and show it to your entire family?

Maybe that's the next thing that should be declared against consumer rights.

Totally ridiculous. Watching a movie is a one time event. Owning a copy of a movie, CD or game is not. Your point is totally invalid.
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post #403 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBrogbo View Post

Can anyone in here honestly tell me that they still play every video game they've ever purchased? No. For the vast majority of the games owned by the vast majority of people, once a game is beaten, it's done. It's not like a chair or a shirt, where you use it over and over and over and over.

And that's exactly why we want to be able to sell it.
post #404 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

Totally ridiculous. Watching a movie is a one time event. Owning a copy of a movie, CD or game is not. Your point is totally invalid.

It is absolutely not invalid. I would argue that the vast majority of games are definitely one-time events.

In all cases, you are purchasing a license (LICENSE!!) allowing you to enjoy the good for a limited amount of time. Regardless of the fact that you can actually play the game as many times as you really want, video game values have an inherent half-life.

You pay $8 for 2-3 hours of enjoyment in a movie, and you pay $40-60 for 10-40 hours of enjoyment with a video game. No one in their right mind is going to put 100 hours into the single player portion of Call of Duty.

Also, technically, you're not allowed to play CDs or DVDs in large venues for others to enjoy either, so you do not 100% completely own them either.

One final point, you really REALLY need to take a step back and understand that everything you're spouting is your personal opinion. Your posts may have constituted 8 entire pages of this thread so far, but unless you are an expert in fair use law, you are inserting just as much conjecture and anecdotal evidence as everyone you've criticized so far.
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post #405 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

And that's exactly why we want to be able to sell it.

Video games are not physical goods, though. You are not paying for a tangible item, which derives its usefulness from satisfying a physical need (like a chair). You are paying a licensing fee, to be able to see a world that someone else created for a short while.
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post #406 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBrogbo View Post

Can anyone in here honestly tell me that they still play every video game they've ever purchased? No.

I still play many of my older games.

Indeed, this week I have played the following:

Dark Sun - Shattered Lands (released in 1993, purchased in 1995)
MechWarrior 2 (1995)
Quake (1995)
Daggerfall (1996)
etcetera

Indeed I play many of my 10-20 year old games more than I do my recent titles, because they are better.

I've actually purchased Baldur's Gate 2 four separate times (purchased and sold the physical game twice, then bought it again later down the line, then bought a more convenient format from GoG.com just recently). I've happily sunk thousands of hours into it over the last 12 years.

Now a days, good games are harder to find, harder to use, harder to modify, harder to transfer, and often cease to be fully functional after a few years because of their myriad of on-line requirements or DRM. As a result, I'm much more careful about where my money goes, and generally am willing to spend far less on modern games.

The only modern game I play with any regularity is Hawken, and that's mostly because it was free.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBrogbo View Post

For the vast majority of the games owned by the vast majority of people, once a game is beaten, it's done. It's not like a chair or a shirt, where you use it over and over and over and over.

I disagree. Good games age well, and tend to have replayability. Many of my oldest PC games are older than any of my clothes (and despite being almost 30, I still wear things I got in 8th grade), or any of my furniture.

Of course, all this is utterly beside the point.

What most people tend to do with their games is irrelevant. What we should be able to do with our software licenses is the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBrogbo View Post

Well, yeah, you purchase movie and concert tickets too.

No I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBrogbo View Post

Does this consumer rights ruling mean that if you purchase a single ticket, you're allowed to record the show, bring it home, and show it to your entire family?

Maybe that's the next thing that should be declared against consumer rights.

This is a straw-man.

No one implying what you are arguing against here.
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post #407 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBrogbo View Post

It is absolutely not invalid. I would argue that the vast majority of games are definitely one-time events.

In all cases, you are purchasing a license (LICENSE!!) allowing you to enjoy the good for a limited amount of time. Regardless of the fact that you can actually play the game as many times as you really want, video game values have an inherent half-life.

You pay $8 for 2-3 hours of enjoyment in a movie, and you pay $40-60 for 10-40 hours of enjoyment with a video game. No one in their right mind is going to put 100 hours into the single player portion of Call of Duty.

Also, technically, you're not allowed to play CDs or DVDs in large venues for others to enjoy either, so you do not 100% completely own them either.

One final point, you really REALLY need to take a step back and understand that everything you're spouting is your personal opinion. Your posts may have constituted 8 entire pages of this thread so far, but unless you are an expert in fair use law, you are inserting just as much conjecture and anecdotal evidence as everyone you've criticized so far.

The EU says you can resell your licence to use a copy of software. I'm not "spouting" nothing and it's entirely factual, not my opinion. Yet YOU are giving your opinion by trying to assert taht you only pay for 10 hours of gameplay when you buy a game? No, ALL the games I buy are indefinite use (I don't play MMO's or Pay2Win games). There are NO time limits on most game licences.

Playing music at a venue is totally different to having a house party or other. Those venues need a licence (PPL in the UK) to play music to crowds. A DVD or movie I buy is mine. If I want to invite 10 friends around to watch it, I can, if I want to lend it to all of them over the course of 10 days, I can. It's mine. The only restrictions are public performances and that's fine and will never change.

Fact is, in the EU you can resell software. Fact is, you and most other people are just giving their opinions and none of them matter or are in any shape valid to what is reality.
Edited by Rubers - 2/2/13 at 8:07pm
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post #408 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

I still play many of my older games. Indeed, this week I have played the following:

Dark Sun - Shattered Lands (released in 1993, purchased in 1995)
MechWarrior 2 (1995)
Quake (1995)
Daggerfall (1996)
etcetera

Indeed I play many of my 10-20 year old games more than I do my recent titles, because they are better.
I've actually purchased Baldur's Gate 2 four separate times (purchased and sold the physical game twice, then bought it again later down the line, then bought a more convenient format from GoG.com just recently). I've happily sunk thousands of hours into it over the last 12 years.
Now a days, good games are harder to find, harder to use, harder to modify, harder to transfer, and often cease to be fully functional after a few years because of their myriad of on-line requirements or DRM. As a result, I'm much more careful about where my money goes, and generally am willing to spend far less on modern games.
The only modern game I play with any regularity is Hawken, and that's mostly because it was free.

That's nice. I like old games too. That was never the point. The point is that MOST games are beaten (or simply dropped), and then never played again. Are you seriously going to try to argue against that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

I disagree. Good games age well, and tend to have replayability. Many of my oldest PC games are older than any of my clothes (and despite being almost 30, I still wear things I got in 8th grade), or any of my furniture.

Of course, all this is utterly beside the point.

What most people tend to do with their games is irrelevant. What we should be able to do with our software licenses is the question.

My oldest PC games are almost older than me, but again, not the point. If you replay some games, then they have not outlived their usefulness yet, plain and simple. If you were at the point of transferring a game license to someone else, however, you are essentially saying the game is worthless. Why, if you paid for something to entertain you, should you be able to simply give it away when you're no longer entertained by it? It served its purpose, you got what you paid for, and the people whose jobs are to entertain you (game developers) got paid for the process.

How can you honestly think its ok for someone else to be entertained by that same good, without the creators getting a dime from it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

No I don't.

Good for you. Did you really not detect that I was speaking of people in general, or was this a feeble attempt to actually argue the point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

This is a straw-man.

No one implying what you are arguing against here.

Straw man? Because video games and movies are so different? They are both intangible goods (again, licenses) from the entertainment industry, which carry legal restrictions, and which, when used up, are inherently worthless.
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post #409 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

The EU says you can resell your licence to use a copy of software. I'm not "spouting" nothing and it's entirely factual, not my opinion. Yet YOU are giving your opinion by trying to assert taht you only pay for 10 hours of gameplay when you buy a game? No, ALL the games I buy are indefinite use (I don't play MMO's or Pay2Win games). There are NO time limits on most game licences.

Playing music at a venue is totally different to having a house party or other. Those venues need a licence (PPL in the UK) to play music to crowds. A DVD or movie I buy is mine. If I want to invite 10 friends around to watch it, I can, if I want to lend it to all of them over the course of 10 days, I can. It's mine. The only restrictions are public performances and that's fine and will never change.

Fact is, in the EU you can resell software. Fact is, you and most other people are just giving their opinions and none of them matter or are in any shape valid to what is reality.

I understand that video game licenses don't expire. What I was saying is that video games have a limited period of usefulness. Video games entire purpose is to entertain us, and once they no longer do, they're done. You got what you paid for, and the people that made it got paid for entertaining you.

Actually, it's not legal in many countries to lend out DVDs to friends/family to watch without your presence. Whether that law is enforceable or not is irrelevant. You absolutely DO NOT 100% own movies when you purchase them. Your usage of those movies is still limited. In fact, some countries are even trying to make it illegal to rip DVDs and BluRays.

You want to talk facts? Fact is, right now, you cannot resell many PC games. Fact is, Steam does not allow for reselling. Fact is, neither does Origin.

Fact is, nothing has happened yet in regards to Steam's policy and you're already declaring it an utterly triumphant victory on behalf of human rights, gamers, and humanity as a whole.
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post #410 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

It would not cost much for Valve to implement a system to allow the lifting of a key from one account to another, and any costs they do encounter will likely be subsidised by the EU. It's a common fact that governments are always willing to help companies adapt to changes in legislation. Once Valve sets up such a system it could operate with very little human oversight and little computer resources, much akin to their Steam Guard system does now (humans very, very rarely have to be involved in that).

Maybe you wouldn't get so worked up over things if you understood them. Consumer rights are in your benefit.

Valve doesn't half ass things, if EU court force it upon them I'm pretty sure they will be spending a good deal of money in the long run to make it work great.

Consumer rights are just as important as a company's rights. It is up to the consumer to know what they are getting themselves into.

Also Steam Guard still isnt 100% hack proof. Don't expect a perfect system, especially when a good chuck of people probably use the same password for their steam account as their email....

Still doesn't negate the fact that If valve wanted to make money off a transfer fee then it has the right to. If people don't like it then why are they using steam? They would be allowing users to sell/trade games away, not their fault if they want to make money on it if they do chose to do it.
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