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[PG] Valve Sued In Germany Over Game Ownership - Page 44

post #431 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpsgc View Post

But that "someone" isn't the manufacturer. So it's irrelevant.

And someone is getting money because of taxes. Again, irrelevant.
Yeah... no.

I don't know why you keep going like a broken record about the same thing when it has been proven wrong countless times in this thread.

No It would be Valve that would get the money, as they would be the ones offering the services and doing all the paper work.

Kinda why if you wanted to sell your digital game you should have done it a different way, as in not through steam. Wanna sell your game in steam, if they want to charge a fee to do so then why shouldn't they?

No different then the government demanding that you pay taxes from a car you buy from someone else. Thing about Valve is that the fee could be passed to the seller or buyer.
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post #432 of 503
@DzillaXx
to put proceeds of car sale in your taxes?
for private citizen seller not in continental EU to my knowledge (cant speak for UK), unless you are a company purchasing a used car from another company with outstanding VAT you can write off from your own payable VAT
for buyer? why should buyer pay tax? yeah there are some ecological/registration fees like NOVA in Austria, but there is no buyer tax when dealing with second hand cars between private citizens.
Also in many EU countries there is no car tax/fee, just standard car insurance but thats different thing
also the fee for steam from resale would have to be reasonable 1-2Eur, otherwise EU would hammer them with penalties.

@47 Knucklehead: in few words, it already happened. antigua had online casinos and US blocked them all. i guess the customers were not happy about that either, were they smile.gif
but the problem here is different. if steam were to do it there would be consequences.
1. they would loose eu market
2. the eu consumer protection agencies would sue them in us court, and i guess a jury might lean toward punishing corporation which is ignoring regulations and laws of a civilized country as EU is smile.gif
3. the CEO, CFO, COO and all the directors would be so much under pressure from stockholders as described above, that they would not dare to do it in the first place

again there is a finding of high eu court. and it cant be overthrown.

best
revro
Edited by revro - 2/3/13 at 5:09am
post #433 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by revro View Post

@DzillaXx
to put proceeds of car sale in your taxes?
for private citizen seller not in continental EU to my knowledge (cant speak for UK), unless you are a company purchasing a used car from another company with outstanding VAT you can write off from your own payable VAT
for buyer? why should buyer pay tax? yeah there are some ecological/registration fees like NOVA in Austria, but there is no buyer tax when dealing with second hand cars between private citizens.
Also in many EU countries there is no car tax/fee, just standard car insurance but thats different thing
also the fee for steam from resale would have to be reasonable 1-2Eur, otherwise EU would hammer them with penalties.

@47 Knucklehead: in few words, it already happened. antigua had online casinos and US blocked them all. i guess the customers were not happy about that either, were they smile.gif
but the problem here is different. if steam were to do it there would be consequences.
1. they would loose eu market
2. the eu consumer protection agencies would sue them in us court, and i guess a jury might lean toward punishing corporation which is ignoring regulations and laws of a civilized country as EU is smile.gif
3. the CEO, CFO, COO and all the directors would be so much under pressure from stockholders as described above, that they would not dare to do it in the first place

again there is a finding of high eu court. and it cant be overthrown.

best
revro

1. Germany =/= EU market
2. You wouldn't have a law suit any longer if they pulled out.
3. Valve is a privately held company, they don't answer to stockholders.
Edited by OwnedINC - 2/3/13 at 5:16am
post #434 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwnedINC View Post

1. Germany =/= EU market
2. You wouldn't have a law suit any longer if they pulled out.
3. Valve is a privately held company, they don't answer to stockholders.

Bingo!
post #435 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Personally, I think that Steam should go on a marketing campaign and pull out all their physical resources out of the EU.

Steam should say "We are going to continue to allow EU customers to play their games uninterrupted, but we will not conform the the grossly unfair EU law that will strangle our business. If you bought a game, you can continue to play it forever per the rules that you agreed to when you bought it. We are aware that the EU will try to stop this from happening, and even attempt to block you from getting to our site, thus preventing you from playing what you paid for. We hope that you will contact your EU representatives and demand that they allow people to choose what they want for themselves and not be forced to do what some government official who most likely doesn't even play video games tells you to do. You made the choice when you signed up, you should be the one to decide if you want to continue to access Steam as you agreed."

What will the EU do then? Block access to Steam servers not in country? Then who will be the bad guy? That's right, the EU government for spoiling it for EVERYONE. With no assets in Europe, the EU can't enforce squat. Treaties don't matter, just like the treaties that the EU has with the US when it comes to handing over Americans who commit crimes and they refuse to extradite them back to our own country. The US can just ignore any requests from the EU about imposing a fine on Steam.

Enjoy the rest of this "debate", I've said my peace.

No site/service would be blocked by the EU for the reasons you listed. If you bought a legal product before some law interfered with its sales you can continue to use it (if the company selling it allows you that is). So if valve stopped selling games through steam in the EU that's all that would happen, they just wouldn't sell them anymore. Or are you implying that the EU is in the business of blocking companies who do business in the US and don't sell to the EU? Of course not.

The problem of course is that none of this will happen, and even if valve did cease business in the EU, it'd be a good thing in the grand scheme of things. Consumer rights are more important than one digital distribution platform. It would just open the market for competitors who would want to profit from the market.

But as I said, they wont leave. Withdrawing from a market the size of the EU (500 million people) is just plain dumb, and wouldn't be good for profits. The plausible outcomes from this are that either valve wins and does nothing, or they lose and then start a long process of actually arguing about how such they are going to follow the law. Followed by a long process of actually making sure a proper system is in place.
 
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post #436 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by revro View Post

@DzillaXx
to put proceeds of car sale in your taxes?
for private citizen seller not in continental EU to my knowledge (cant speak for UK), unless you are a company purchasing a used car from another company with outstanding VAT you can write off from your own payable VAT
for buyer? why should buyer pay tax? yeah there are some ecological/registration fees like NOVA in Austria, but there is no buyer tax when dealing with second hand cars between private citizens.
Also in many EU countries there is no car tax/fee, just standard car insurance but thats different thing
also the fee for steam from resale would have to be reasonable 1-2Eur, otherwise EU would hammer them with penalties.

@47 Knucklehead: in few words, it already happened. antigua had online casinos and US blocked them all. i guess the customers were not happy about that either, were they smile.gif
but the problem here is different. if steam were to do it there would be consequences.
1. they would loose eu market
2. the eu consumer protection agencies would sue them in us court, and i guess a jury might lean toward punishing corporation which is ignoring regulations and laws of a civilized country as EU is smile.gif
3. the CEO, CFO, COO and all the directors would be so much under pressure from stockholders as described above, that they would not dare to do it in the first place

again there is a finding of high eu court. and it cant be overthrown.

best
revro

At least Here when you buy a used car you pay a percentage of tax on the total cost of the car. You pay when you register the car at the DMV.
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post #437 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

No site/service would be blocked by the EU for the reasons you listed. If you bought a legal product before some law interfered with its sales you can continue to use it (if the company selling it allows you that is). So if valve stopped selling games through steam in the EU that's all that would happen, they just wouldn't sell them anymore. Or are you implying that the EU is in the business of blocking companies who do business in the US and don't sell to the EU? Of course not.

The problem of course is that none of this will happen, and even if valve did cease business in the EU, it'd be a good thing in the grand scheme of things. Consumer rights are more important than one digital distribution platform. It would just open the market for competitors who would want to profit from the market.

But as I said, they wont leave. Withdrawing from a market the size of the EU (500 million people) is just plain dumb, and wouldn't be good for profits. The plausible outcomes from this are that either valve wins and does nothing, or they lose and then start a long process of actually arguing about how such they are going to follow the law. Followed by a long process of actually making sure a proper system is in place.

You are missing what I am saying. I'm not saying they would stop selling to the EU. I'm saying what I think they should do is remove any PHYSICAL PRESENCE they have in the EU (so the EU can't come arrest them or take their servers) and allow people in the EU to go to steam.com and if THEY WANT TO, continue to buy games, download, and play them ... just like normal.

Then what they can do is tell the EU GOVERNMENT to "get bent" (since they don't have a physical presence there). Then the EU GOVERNMENT will either have to TRY (and will most likely fail) to take legal action against them in an international court (which doesn't always work, hence my example of how the EU has blown off the US with extradiction) or block steam.com. If the EU Government does the latter, then the EU customers of Steam will blame the EU Government and NOT Steam for preventing them from playing what they paid for.
post #438 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Bingo!
1. Germany =/= EU market
if they are sued in germany, they will be sued in other countries and loose as well, so yes Germany = EU market
2. You wouldn't have a law suit any longer if they pulled out.
yeah but they would have to stop selling in eu and their competition would gladly take over, i mean what do you think origin and uplay are for? to take on steam
3. Valve is a privately held company, they don't answer to stockholders.
ok so i assume that gabe newell is like majority owner as his net worth is like 60% of valve valuation. and while you dont think that he doesnot answer to minority owners, they could sue him in case of such move, well unless the remaining 40% are owned by his dog tongue.gif

EDIT: if they close presence in EU they wont be able to sell games to EU customers, cause you have to pay VAT and all other taxes if you want to be a company in EU. also bank transfers are big trouble cause banks would make it really expensive for payments between EU and US
Also if Valve could do it, are you saying EU companies can sell to US customers and ignore US regulations?

best
revro
Edited by revro - 2/3/13 at 6:11am
post #439 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Cars, houses and books all eventually wear out. Cars and houses need regular maintenance to continue to work.

Digital copies of games do not.

Apples and Oranges.

Apples and Apples
There's no "license" involved in the purchase of a game or book. The licenses related to books and games are known as IP: Immaterial rights; The person or organization that holds those rights have the right to reproduce and or copy. The concept of "license to watch" is laughable, again apples and apples: You can lend your car to a friend but not your game to a friend?

Yes I know that some people see code as an abstract piece of eternal information, still it has to be bound to a medium to exist, that medium will deteriorate, just as a car will. And since you have right to take care of your car it might outlast well most things. just as swapping harddrives (Regular maintenance)and investing in a tape recorder might make your code last for inifinity but thats not relevant now is it because in most cases people will break their discs, scratch them loose them and so forth. If Steam has taken it up on themselves to store information indefinetely thats their problem not mine, much less than a car company telling their customers that tthey will extend their warranty program for 400 years.

Again there is no license involved in games or any physical representation of an immaterial concept. Take care of your stuff and it will last. DuPont knew this and made hoisery that would rip rather than last.
Apples and apples.
 
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post #440 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by revro View Post

1. Germany =/= EU market
if they are sued in germany, they will be sued in other countries and loose as well, so yes Germany = EU market
2. You wouldn't have a law suit any longer if they pulled out.
yeah but they would have to stop selling in eu and their competition would gladly take over, i mean what do you think origin and uplay are for? to take on steam
3. Valve is a privately held company, they don't answer to stockholders.
ok so i assume that gabe newell is like majority owner as his net worth is like 60% of valve valuation. and while you dont think that he doesnot answer to minority owners, they could sue him in case of such move, well unless the remaining 40% are owned by his dog tongue.gif

EDIT: if they close presence in EU they wont be able to sell games to EU customers, cause you have to pay VAT and all other taxes if you want to be a company in EU. also bank transfers are big trouble cause banks would make it really expensive for payments between EU and US
Also if Valve could do it, are you saying EU companies can sell to US customers and ignore US regulations?

best
revro

No what I think he was trying to say was that Valve could leave and give everyone the finger and write EU off till they fix the error in their ways..

Really if Valve wanted to they could cut off all access to steam for all EU users including access to the games they bought and retreat back to America. EU could try and sue them all they want on their own land, but Valve isn't located in the EU and it would be impossible to force them to pay a cent. America isn't the most fond of extraditing, and to sue them from American court would be pretty hard given the fact they didn't do anything wrong here. Hell I could go so some African County and kill a couple of people and flee back to America, and get in no trouble. While this will never happen, EU should still understand that retaliation would be bad for its users and they would only have themselves to blame for being so one minded.
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3x 640 WD blacks Raid 0 Mushkin Enhanced Reactor 512GB SSD Sandisk 1TB SSD Samsung 470 Series 128GB SSD 
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XSPC Raystorm Windows 10 64bit Microboard m340clz 100hz 3440x1440 Corsair K70 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
TX850 HAF922 Logitech G502 Creative Sound Blaster Z  
AudioAudioAudio
Elac B6 & Dayton Audio SUB-800 Yamaha HTR-5790 Audio Technica ATH-A700 headphones 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Q9550 @ 4GHZ Gigabyte EP45 UD3P GTX470 4GB OCZ Reaper 1150mhz 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Western Digital Blue 500gb OCZ Vertex 2 60GB LG Bluray Corsair H50 
OSKeyboardPowerCase
Windows 7 Home Premium  Logitech K400 Corsair CX500 nMEDIAPC 6000B 
AudioOtherOtherOther
Yamaha HTR-5063 PS3 80GB BC PS3 with 250GB hard drive. Polk Audio Monitor 60s Bi-AMP Front Polk Audio Monitor 30s Rear 
OtherOther
Polk Audio CS1 Center Polk Audio PSW10 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Xeon Harpertown 3.6ghz Asus P5Q SE/R HD7770 4GB DDR2 800mhz Corsair 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
5TB Toshiba 5TB Toshiba 5TB Toshiba 2TB Hitachi 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOS
2TB Seagate 2TB Western Digital 1TB Hitachi Windows Home Server 2011 
Power
Corsair CX500 
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