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A few words about pumps and flow rate. - Page 2

post #11 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by YowZ View Post

That's because to calculate power (or energy) in a dynamic application you typically need force and velocity (or displacement for energy). Pressure is force per unit area and flow rate is velocity times unit area. Pressure is just force over an area, with nothing to push against, there is no pressure.

Head of water is density x gravitational acceleration x height, its weight creates pressure.

I have a degree in engineering dude, im not wrong about this.

I also have a degree in engineering and more, but it's just a piece of paper that certifies passing a 4 year curriculum. I have mentored and trained numerous degree bearing interns, some are brilliant, some may be text book brilliant but have no practical talent, some are neither and just have a lot of time and money to get through it with plenty of help. "Degree" means very little to me. I will also be the last person to ever say I'm never wrong, the most valuable tool in learning is making mistakes and accepting that the best answer is often in aggregate of many contributing through a diverse set of perspectives no matter where they came from.

What I understand is energy creates work and weather it's a compressed volume of water or a lifted column of water, they are a form of potential energy measured in terms of pressure HEAD.

Why else would you include "HEAD" into the equation for hydraulic horsepower.
Hydraulic HP =(Head (ft) x Flow Rate (gpm) x (Specific Gravity))/3956

Multiply HP by 0.746 to obtain kilowatts
Hydraulic Kilowatts=((9.81) x Head (meters) x Flow Rate ( L / S ) x (Specific Gravity))/1000
Multiply kilowatts by 1.341 to obtain horsepower

What is a watt per wiki?
The watt (pron.: /ˈwɒt/ wot; symbol: W) is a derived unit of power in the International System of Units (SI), named after the Scottish engineer James Watt (1736–1819). The unit, defined as one joule per second, measures the rate of energy conversion or transfer.

HEAD is actually a bit more complex than we all give it credit, because a pump can lift the same amount of pressure head weather it is water or some other fluid with a different density as long as the viscosity is the same. We typically work with water, so we tend to ignore some of the finer details now and then and loosely consider HEAD and Pressure the same, they are actually different.

Have you ever witnessed an 12" water main let loose while under 150PSI of pressure (Zero Flow) during a pressure test? I have, and it's a heck of a show of water pressure energy released to kinetic energy and makes a real fine mess fast...smile.gif I have inspected probably hundreds of different pressure related tests for various public works type projects and pressure sure as heck deserves it's respect as a form of potentially lethal energy.

Look into lock out tag out procedures for any industrial plant and you will find all sorts of discussion about how to release or restrain potential energy sources which includes pressure systems. Water pressure certainly is stored potential energy.

Anyhow, my point was to not ignore pressure, in water cooling it is actually a bit more important than flow rate when discussing pumps. It is true that in terms of cooling potential, the blocks and radiators do not gain anything from pressure at the block or rad. Flow rate is all that matters regarding to thermal performance, but in order to create that flow rate and relative to discussion of choosing pumps, pump head is critical to overcome the restriction.

I understand your position and values regarding a few degrees not mattering to YOU, but your values are different than mine and many water coolers looking for those last few degrees. Honestly, water cooling in large wouldn't probably exist if it wasn't for people who do care about those last few degrees. Air cooling is adequate, and the difference in overclock from water to air is not going to matter much for web browsing or posting in these forums either. For me and those others in pursuit of the fine (and arguably worthless) last few degrees, we will continue to discuss pumps, their pressure capabilities, flow rate, etc. It is what we value and enjoy and it's all good thumb.gif
Edited by Martinm210 - 2/2/13 at 7:57pm
    
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post #12 of 74
I just wanted to say that YES! We need more discussion like this!
   
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post #13 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by nleksan View Post

I just wanted to say that YES! We need more discussion like this!
i kind of agree, im going into comp sci and haven't/won't take classes on this subject matter, but hell its very interesting and a great read
    
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post #14 of 74
This is sauce for me and very much on topic
post #15 of 74
Well bottom your head lads an engineer with a degree in pumps incoming now!

I am a mechnical engineer working specifically on the big pumps used to suck oil and transport it but the set of rules still stand.

Pressure = Head

Head Vs Flow = What drives the liquid.

Impeller design and Impeller rpm = Sets the curve for the Head Vs RPM and Flow Vs RPM

Pump type highlights the impeller design.

For example (At the same RPM):
Centrifugal Pumps = Maximum Head and low flow
Axial Flow Pumps = Maximum Flow and less head generated
Mixed Flow Pumps = A Mix of the two.

For our loops the most important thing as martin stated is having a flow 1gpm to cool everything.

So next thing that comes is pump silence... That happens at low rpm.

So you would go with Centrifugal Pumps.
Most D5 heads currently avaliable are Mixed flow so it gives high flow and low head.
MCP35x pumps are pure centrifugal pumps.

Now as our dear YowZ stated having two pumps in sequence will give you nearly double the head required. Thats half the truth. On average you gonna gain 15~20% more flow also.

So two pumps in sequence = twice the head and 20% more flow.

First rule in a loop? 1gpm.
Second rule? Get first rule and you get your required head by default.
For those who care:
Everything connected in one loop = 1-2'C difference in a loop.
Want to cool something better then the rest => Put it in it's own loop. But your gains will be marginal since water can absorb alot of heat but gaining one degree of temperature.

Water requires 4181 joule to heat up one liter (1 liter = 1kg) up one degree.

In a typical system you have from 1 to 1.5 liters.

Your rads = Heats down your rads
your blocks = heats up the water
Water is a saving account for exceess heat.

Heat transfer states = The bigger the temperature difference the bigger the heat transfer.
Hence why everybody here in this forum calculates the temperature difference between your water and ambient. Cause no way water will be cooled naturally cooler then ambient. Basic Thermo Dynamics.

So lets say you save 2 Degrees on one loop... you basically degrade the efficieny of the other loop! Not to mention the whole case being ugly with too much tubing.

Watts = Joule/S The amount of heat generated in one second.

So basically if you have a stagnant water heap in a block over a 3930k...the amount of water in that block is bout 100ml. meaning to heat up that amount by 1 degree you need ~42 joules.
The 3930k when OCed to 4.5ghz creates about 250watt of heat => 250 Joules/S.

So for every second that block heats up by nearly 6 degrees cause the water is not flowing. But let it flow and that 100ml turns into 2 to 3 liters worth of liquid.
You need 4181x1.5= 6272 joules/s... it takes that little block if you have flowing water 25 seconds to raise that amount of water by 1 degree!

Now lets go all out... lets calculate if you have lets say... Quadfire 7950s (I am lazy and I did my calculations on my hydra):
4x7950 OCed = They generate about 1000 Joules/s
1x3770k OCed = ~180 Joules/s

Total Joules = ~1200 Joules/S

1200 watts will raise that 1.5L of water per 5 seconds by 1 degree.... in 1 min you got 12 degrees delta.

The game is not just this... the game is steady state of the whole systems. Now comes in Rads and fans. but thats another topic and I am worn out.
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post #16 of 74
One of the things I love about fellow engineers (Psychopharmocologist by way of Biochemical Engineering) is that EVERY SINGLE GOOD ENGINEER I'VE EVER MET, IN ANY SPECIALTY, ENJOYS SHARING THEIR KNOWLEDGE & TEACHING OTHERS!!!

ROCK ON, comrades!
   
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post #17 of 74
Thread Starter 
Martin, from a skim read your maths seems legit, but your perception of the units is all over the shop.
Head is a measure of pressure, this is PSI, Pa, Bar, w/e you wanna call it, but its not energy. Energy being J/cal/HP. Seriously dude, this kind of accuracy is essential that energy release you are talking about with something bursting will be due to the mechanical energy stored in the vessel/tube etc. Not the fluid. Water being for the most part in-compressible does not do a terrific job of doing work during expansion because it does not change volume significantly, its an isentropic process (theoretically) and the fluid must either heat up or cool down as it expands or is compressed, and this is where any energy used to raise the pressure must go. For a compressible fluid such as air, as it is decompressed through use such as an air tool, it cools down, the energy it delivers comes from a decrease in its thermal energy.
Algebraically, if P = F / A and Vdot = v x A. If I multiply P and Vdot, or pressure and volumetric flow, I get F/A x v x A, the areas cancel, and I'm left with F x v. For mechanical power, P = Fv. Ergo, the pump horse power equation you are stating calculates the pumps power based on the amount of mechanical work it does. Not the amount of pressure it creates.

King4x4, I'm fricken tired for I've only skim read your post, but everything there looks good smile.gif. Will read it properly in the morning.
 
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post #18 of 74
Let me quote another one for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_head
Pressure head is a term used in fluid mechanics to represent the internal energy of a fluid due to the pressure exerted on its container.

And here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_head

In fluid dynamics, head is a concept that relates the energy in an incompressible fluid to the height of an equivalent static column of that fluid. From Bernoulli's Principle, the total energy at a given point in a fluid is the energy associated with the movement of the fluid, plus energy from pressure in the fluid, plus energy from the height of the fluid relative to an arbitrary datum. Head is expressed in units of height such as meters or feet.

Crap, I guess Bernoulli is wrong too...time to rewrite all the manuals??...biggrin.gif
    
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post #19 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by nleksan View Post

I just wanted to say that YES! We need more discussion like this!

This. Subbing for reading. Dont mind the followers guys, keep doing what your doing. But keep it civilized
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1Tb Western Digital HDD 1Tb Western Digital HDD Slim Slot stealthed Heatkiller 3.0 CU, Heatkiller 7970 CU with back... 
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Phobya 400mm radiator, EX 360mm radiator, misc ... Swiftech MCP35X2 Pump, Frozen_Q 250mm Liquid Fu... Windows 7 Ultimate Asus 1080P 
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Bubble Bee Tuna
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4770k@4.5 Asrock Z87 OC Formula 7970@1200/1600 6970@950/1450 
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6970@950/1450 Samsung Wonder Ram 120Gb Phoenix SSD 120Gb Phoenix SSD 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
1Tb Western Digital HDD 1Tb Western Digital HDD Slim Slot stealthed Heatkiller 3.0 CU, Heatkiller 7970 CU with back... 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Phobya 400mm radiator, EX 360mm radiator, misc ... Swiftech MCP35X2 Pump, Frozen_Q 250mm Liquid Fu... Windows 7 Ultimate Asus 1080P 
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OCN Edition Ducky with MX Blues Corsair HX 850 Corsair 600T Razor Lachesis 
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post #20 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210 View Post

From Bernoulli's Principle, the total energy at a given point in a fluid is the energy associated with the movement of the fluid, plus energy from pressure in the fluid, plus energy from the height of the fluid relative to an arbitrary datum.

A combination of potential and actual energies Martin? Calculating the totality of impact that it may have? Or am I mistaken in my understanding of this?



Waiting for more information as I like where this thread is going. Quality Content. Indeed. Just want to say subscribed and researching as I wait for more replies. I really liked the clarity with which you made your post King4x4, should make that a guide for beginning water coolers(like myself) instead of this, 'buy these parts based on reviews then connect and voila!' I keep finding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomTaco View Post

A 120mm rad can dissipate around 100-120 watts at a decent noise level from the fans so you'd need around 6-8 120mm rad space, so you definitely will have more than enough rad space with your current plans.

I plan on reading into this some more.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Water Cooling › A few words about pumps and flow rate.