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post #51 of 74
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combine the two and you've got horse power
 
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post #52 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by YowZ View Post

combine the two and you've got horse power
As in the revs are responsible for torque (or in this case pump moving to create pressure/flow) and this action is the horsepower(flow, consequence of the machines actions)?
post #53 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

If you are worried about heat dump from the pump, get a DCC as they dump their heat in air while D5 pumps dump their heat in the water. That's why a DCC pump feels like it's running hotter.

There is pros and cons to both of these characteristics.

Could someone please clarify on this as I'm looking at a MCP35x but if it's a DCC and dumps heat into the air, why do I keep reading they need a heatsink? Do they heat up the water they pump?

I've also read some D5s require an extra 120 radiator because of the 60W or so they place into the water. Is this because the D5's heat is placed into the water?

I'm planning on two MCP35x pumps on two seperate loops... the loops originating in mirroring 5.25" bay reservoirs then going as follows:

1- Pump -> Swiftech Apogee HD -> Monsta 480 in push pull -> reservoir
2A- Pump -> 680 Block (still deciding) -> Rampage IV Block (also am still deciding) -> 2 x Monsta 480 -> reservoir
2B- Pump -> Monsta 480 -> 680 Block -> Rampage IV -> Monsta 480 -> reservoir

The reasoning being they provide a lot of head and that may be needed for the more restrictive second loop. This loop will be run one of either two ways(which do you think is more effective? I am thinking 2B), both listed above and using Monsta 480s because there are no 2 x 480 radiators that I can currently locate.

EDIT: I've read that solid metal/plastic internals without plating makes for a longer life requiring less input so I should be good on run 1 but is this something I should be concerned about?

I want to minimize impact on system from materials in the long run maximizing life span as I do not plan on spending more money on the rig for a long period.
post #54 of 74
D5 pumps differ from DDC in regard to their impeller casing material. D5s have a metal case which transfers heat from the stator and electronics to the water so they don't really get hot. Also the D5 is more of a high flow low pressure oriented pump so it is not driving very hard even at 2gpm levels. The DDC uses a plastic casing which insulates the electronics from the water. In addition DDC pumps are more pressure oriented with a lower max flow rate. This makes DDC pump to drive more toward the max flow rate which is where maximum current occurs. Also the DDC pump electronics are cramped and when sitting on it's base have a hard time dissipating heat build up. Last but not least, the DDC1 was a lowere watt pump, the DDC2 and later generation 18W models did't come in until later. I have always wondered if they were really meant to only be those lower wattage and the 18w model is really just a modifed version and perhaps pushing thermal limits a bit.

All pumps dump most of their heat into the water, probably 60-80% of the power consumed is dumped, the difference is how hot the electronics get which doesn't translate at all to how much is pit into the water.

Heat in DDC pumps is highly dependant on resulting flow rate and restriction. A highly restrictive loop (1GPM) will run much cooler than something low in restriction with high flow rate (2+GPM).
tempvsflowrate2.png
Personally, I would at least make sure you have good moving air blowing under the base on all DDC installs if you plan to run full speed all the time. With a 35x if you throttle down regularly, you can probably do without. D5 no worries on heat. heatsink on DDC always a good thing, probably not necessary, but cooler electronics and less heat dumping into the loop is always a benefit.

DDC pumps are also a bit more efficient with a top.
35xefficiency.jpg
So a combination of efficiency and casing materials means DDC pumps have less heat dump (into the water) for the same amount of pumping power.

At like speeds D5 is a little quieter:
pnr1-b-comparisondecoupled.png
Both good pumps though..each with their own benefits.
Edited by Martinm210 - 2/5/13 at 10:02pm
    
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post #55 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 111ch1 View Post

As in the revs are responsible for torque (or in this case pump moving to create pressure/flow) and this action is the horsepower(flow, consequence of the machines actions)?

alas no. revs and torque are very much independent of each other in an engine. the only effect revs have on torque is fluid phenomena such as resonance and scavenging in the intake and exhaust which improve volumetric efficiency and max available torque. how affecting these are is determined by the engine speed. an engine can spin at 7000 rpm and make no torque at all (the bit it would be making being used to overcome friction in the engine).
 
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post #56 of 74
Im a nuclear operator in the navy. I havent gone to college yet and to be honest I suck at heat transfer and fluid flow when it comes to actually producing the mathematic equations necessary to produce a value. However when looking at this application and any application of a pump you always have to take into consideration the pressure of the system. If a pump cannot produce enough torque to overcome system pressure it is useless. It has to be able to overcome the system pressure in order to achieve an adequate mass flow rate. The pressure is the variable in this argument as to whether you can achieve your desired flow. I am not arguing as to whether or not pressure is a form of energy, however having heard a several thousand psi air motor shut a valve can definitely scare the crap out of you. Also I find it funny that I came across this thread while searching for cheap iwaki md30rz's smile.gif

Hehe cant wait to find out how wrong my explanation is. Probably used wrong terms somewhere...
post #57 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dctravis View Post

Im a nuclear operator in the navy. I havent gone to college yet and to be honest I suck at heat transfer and fluid flow when it comes to actually producing the mathematic equations necessary to produce a value. However when looking at this application and any application of a pump you always have to take into consideration the pressure of the system. If a pump cannot produce enough torque to overcome system pressure it is useless. It has to be able to overcome the system pressure in order to achieve an adequate mass flow rate. The pressure is the variable in this argument as to whether you can achieve your desired flow. I am not arguing as to whether or not pressure is a form of energy, however having heard a several thousand psi air motor shut a valve can definitely scare the crap out of you. Also I find it funny that I came across this thread while searching for cheap iwaki md30rz's smile.gif

Hehe cant wait to find out how wrong my explanation is. Probably used wrong terms somewhere...

Nope, nothing wrong as such there. You do need a pump that can overcome system back pressure.
Yeah i should think that would scare the crap out satan yet alone a person xD.
Pressure is an expression of the internal kinetic (thermal) energy a fluid has, not energy in itself.
 
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post #58 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by 111ch1 View Post

Could someone please clarify on this as I'm looking at a MCP35x but if it's a DCC and dumps heat into the air, why do I keep reading they need a heatsink? Do they heat up the water they pump?

I've also read some D5s require an extra 120 radiator because of the 60W or so they place into the water. Is this because the D5's heat is placed into the water?

I'm planning on two MCP35x pumps on two seperate loops... the loops originating in mirroring 5.25" bay reservoirs then going as follows:

1- Pump -> Swiftech Apogee HD -> Monsta 480 in push pull -> reservoir
2A- Pump -> 680 Block (still deciding) -> Rampage IV Block (also am still deciding) -> 2 x Monsta 480 -> reservoir
2B- Pump -> Monsta 480 -> 680 Block -> Rampage IV -> Monsta 480 -> reservoir

The reasoning being they provide a lot of head and that may be needed for the more restrictive second loop. This loop will be run one of either two ways(which do you think is more effective? I am thinking 2B), both listed above and using Monsta 480s because there are no 2 x 480 radiators that I can currently locate.

EDIT: I've read that solid metal/plastic internals without plating makes for a longer life requiring less input so I should be good on run 1 but is this something I should be concerned about?

I want to minimize impact on system from materials in the long run maximizing life span as I do not plan on spending more money on the rig for a long period.

Martin already gave a fantastic answer (as always), just wanted to add in a few things from my experience with the MCP35X....

First, I ALWAYS recommend the use of a heatsink simply because it's very cheap "insurance", and when you're spending hundreds of dollars to water cool your computer due to the fact that lower temps are better for electronics, it makes no sense to me not to do what you can to minimize the operating temperature of the pump itself, the backbone of your entire cooling system! I have 2 MCP35X pumps, although only one in use atm as I have yet to order the Swiftech MCP35X2-White Housing, and I only have one heatsink as well. For $13 I got the Heatsink, and another $10 got me an 80x15mm fan that pushes 38CFM and ~4.8mmH2O while being very quiet; the difference in pump temperature is significant!!

Also, why two loops???
If it were me designing the loop you described, I'd go with an MCP35X2 and get the benefits of two of the most powerful pumps available running in series, as well as the significant benefit of having redundancy! You would likely have both pumps running around ~30% instead of ~50%, thus running quieter while delivering more flow/pressure at the same time.

I'd set it up as such:
Reservoir - MCP35X2 - CPU Block - RIVE Block - MONSTA 480 #1 - MONSTA 480 #2 - GTX680 Block(s) - MONSTA 480#3 - Reservoir

You'll end up with significantly better overall cooling using one loop than with two....
Quote:
Originally Posted by YowZ View Post

alas no. revs and torque are very much independent of each other in an engine. the only effect revs have on torque is fluid phenomena such as resonance and scavenging in the intake and exhaust which improve volumetric efficiency and max available torque. how affecting these are is determined by the engine speed. an engine can spin at 7000 rpm and make no torque at all (the bit it would be making being used to overcome friction in the engine).

Are we talking gas-piston engines, or electric engines?
   
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post #59 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Are we talking gas-piston engines, or electric engines?
reciprocating gas piston engines. again, in an idealized and generalizing setting. I'm too lazy for another full length discussion on piston on bore/stroke ratios, engine harmonics etc.
 
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post #60 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by YowZ View Post

reciprocating gas piston engines. again, in an idealized and generalizing setting. I'm too lazy for another full length discussion on piston on bore/stroke ratios, engine harmonics etc.

I don't think there are any plunger pumps available for water cooling, so there's no need to.
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