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Amd Steamroller. The secret weapon that could decimate Intel - Page 8

post #71 of 210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

And in single threaded apps which most software still is single threaded it will be 40% slower because the IPC is horrible.

Because we all need chrome to open a fraction of a second faster. Every new program is becoming more and more multithreaded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheezman View Post

Intel started adding cores to their Ivy Bridge CPUs.

So, I present to you:

Hahahahah
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post #72 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

Please stop the speculation because a lot of people are going to get hurt just like they did with BD.

this.
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post #73 of 210
Charlie is saying that Intel is dropping Tick Tock for something different. Honestly, it's no surprise that they're doing this. Ever since the Tick Tock model was introduced, CPU performance increase has been abysmal.

Here's out everything looks since the end of 2008 when Nehalem was introduced. :

Nehalem -> Westmere (no IPC increase) -> Westmere -> Sandy Bridge (about 10% to 15% IPC increase) -> Sandy Bridge -> Ivy Bridge (0% to 5% IPC increase, performance gains only come from better working turbo which means nothing to overclockers. Also, Ivy Bridge took an overclocking penalty) -> Ivy Bridge -> Haswell (10% IPC increase).

So basically, since the end of 2008, we've seen generations of CPUs that offer pretty much 10% IPC increases every two years.

Intel definitely has realized this and it's realized that not only AMD, but ARM is growing in performance much more rapidly than Intel is.

And, everyone seems to forget this, but Intel is just refining the mobile Pentium design. It is a refine architecture that is around 20 years old. AMD has a brand new architecture.

My point is that Intel doesn't have a lot of room to squeeze out performance. You can notice this because Intel is working on power consumption, not performance now. Everyone assumes that Intel is just focusing on power consumption because that's where the market is growing, but they haven't stopped to realize that it may be that Intel simply can't milk much more out of their old mobile Pentium design and they're relying on processing nodes and power consumption improvements. Obviously, it's probably a combination of those two, but that never seems to get mentioned.

Contrast that with AMD, who released a brand new architecture that has a ridiculous amount of room for improvement, and it's easy to see that unless Intel changes things, AMD actually has a good chance of catching up.

I mean, look at Haswell, it's basically 10% IPC increase with no clock increase (from the leaks I've seen), and then Broadwell will be the same chip on 14nm, so probably same performance per clock with better working turbo. So, with Tick Tock, Intel will rely on no performance increase for the next ~2 years.

Meanwhile, AMD is going to release PD 2.0 which allows for 10% higher clocks (and possible IPC improvements), and then will release or start shipping Steamroller at the end of this year, offering 30% IPC increase.

Simply put, this is basic calculus. AMD's rate of positive change is far greater than Intel's. So, eventually, AMD would catch up to Intel (and exceed) Intel if these current trends continued. Which is probably why Intel is going to drop Tick Tock.

A 10% increase for the next 2 years can not compete with 10% and then another 30% in a single year. if AMD does manage to increase performance 40% per year continually, it will beat Intel unless Intel changes their rate of improvement or AMD slows down.

Intel has not been releasing good products compared to their past. They simply look good compared to what AMD is offering. Had Intel or AMD had performance increases on Intel's current level of 10% every two years in the 90s or early 00s, things would be absymal.

To put 10% every two years into perspective, lets look at Pentium 4 at 1.5ghz. Willamette was released in 2000. So

2002 we would have the equivalent of 1.65ghz single core Pentium 4
2004 we would have the equivalent of 1.815ghz single core Pentium 4
2006 we would have the equivalent of 1.99ghz single core Pentium 4
2008 we would have the equivalent of 2.19ghz single core Pentium 4
2010 we would have the equivalent of 2.4ghz Single core Pentium 4
2012 we would have the equivalent of 2.66ghz single core Pentium 4
2014 we would have the equivalent of 2.92ghz single core Pentium 4

Obviously, in the 00s, we had much better rate of performance increase than what I've listed. From 2000 to 2008 we basically went from 1.5ghz single core Pentium 4 netburst to Core i7 quad core.

AMD has not done much better, but they are increasing faster.
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post #74 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheezman View Post

Intel started adding cores to their Ivy Bridge CPUs.

That's on Ivy-E, mainly because Ivy-EP could have more native cores than Sandy-EP.

Like AMD, Intel realizes that HSA is the future, hence why Intel is focusing more and more on increasing IGP performance instead of adding more cores. Right now Intel is still behind in Graphics due to lack in expertise(including drivers) & inexperience but those can improve through trial and error and by the time Intel driver matures(Skylake?) they can leverage the die shrink advantage(a lot more transistors) to compete with APU graphics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Charlie

Stopped reading right there. What did Charlie say about Bulldozer again?

The rest of your post: " Intel is Doomed" rolleyes.gif
Edited by sherlock - 2/3/13 at 2:20pm
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post #75 of 210
Warning WALL OF TEXT! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Charlie is saying that Intel is dropping Tick Tock for something different. Honestly, it's no surprise that they're doing this. Ever since the Tick Tock model was introduced, CPU performance increase has been abysmal.

Here's out everything looks since the end of 2008 when Nehalem was introduced. :

Nehalem -> Westmere (no IPC increase) -> Westmere -> Sandy Bridge (about 10% to 15% IPC increase) -> Sandy Bridge -> Ivy Bridge (0% to 5% IPC increase, performance gains only come from better working turbo which means nothing to overclockers. Also, Ivy Bridge took an overclocking penalty) -> Ivy Bridge -> Haswell (10% IPC increase).

So basically, since the end of 2008, we've seen generations of CPUs that offer pretty much 10% IPC increases every two years.

Intel definitely has realized this and it's realized that not only AMD, but ARM is growing in performance much more rapidly than Intel is.

And, everyone seems to forget this, but Intel is just refining the mobile Pentium design. It is a refine architecture that is around 20 years old. AMD has a brand new architecture.

My point is that Intel doesn't have a lot of room to squeeze out performance. You can notice this because Intel is working on power consumption, not performance now. Everyone assumes that Intel is just focusing on power consumption because that's where the market is growing, but they haven't stopped to realize that it may be that Intel simply can't milk much more out of their old mobile Pentium design and they're relying on processing nodes and power consumption improvements. Obviously, it's probably a combination of those two, but that never seems to get mentioned.

Contrast that with AMD, who released a brand new architecture that has a ridiculous amount of room for improvement, and it's easy to see that unless Intel changes things, AMD actually has a good chance of catching up.

I mean, look at Haswell, it's basically 10% IPC increase with no clock increase (from the leaks I've seen), and then Broadwell will be the same chip on 14nm, so probably same performance per clock with better working turbo. So, with Tick Tock, Intel will rely on no performance increase for the next ~2 years.

Meanwhile, AMD is going to release PD 2.0 which allows for 10% higher clocks (and possible IPC improvements), and then will release or start shipping Steamroller at the end of this year, offering 30% IPC increase.

Simply put, this is basic calculus. AMD's rate of positive change is far greater than Intel's. So, eventually, AMD would catch up to Intel (and exceed) Intel if these current trends continued. Which is probably why Intel is going to drop Tick Tock.

A 10% increase for the next 2 years can not compete with 10% and then another 30% in a single year. if AMD does manage to increase performance 40% per year continually, it will beat Intel unless Intel changes their rate of improvement or AMD slows down.

Intel has not been releasing good products compared to their past. They simply look good compared to what AMD is offering. Had Intel or AMD had performance increases on Intel's current level of 10% every two years in the 90s or early 00s, things would be absymal.

To put 10% every two years into perspective, lets look at Pentium 4 at 1.5ghz. Willamette was released in 2000. So

2002 we would have the equivalent of 1.65ghz single core Pentium 4
2004 we would have the equivalent of 1.815ghz single core Pentium 4
2006 we would have the equivalent of 1.99ghz single core Pentium 4
2008 we would have the equivalent of 2.19ghz single core Pentium 4
2010 we would have the equivalent of 2.4ghz Single core Pentium 4
2012 we would have the equivalent of 2.66ghz single core Pentium 4
2014 we would have the equivalent of 2.92ghz single core Pentium 4

Obviously, in the 00s, we had much better rate of performance increase than what I've listed. From 2000 to 2008 we basically went from 1.5ghz single core Pentium 4 netburst to Core i7 quad core.

AMD has not done much better, but they are increasing faster.
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post #76 of 210
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Charlie is saying that Intel is dropping Tick Tock for something different. Honestly, it's no surprise that they're doing this. Ever since the Tick Tock model was introduced, CPU performance increase has been abysmal.

Here's out everything looks since the end of 2008 when Nehalem was introduced. :

Nehalem -> Westmere (no IPC increase) -> Westmere -> Sandy Bridge (about 10% to 15% IPC increase) -> Sandy Bridge -> Ivy Bridge (0% to 5% IPC increase, performance gains only come from better working turbo which means nothing to overclockers. Also, Ivy Bridge took an overclocking penalty) -> Ivy Bridge -> Haswell (10% IPC increase).

So basically, since the end of 2008, we've seen generations of CPUs that offer pretty much 10% IPC increases every two years.

Intel definitely has realized this and it's realized that not only AMD, but ARM is growing in performance much more rapidly than Intel is.

And, everyone seems to forget this, but Intel is just refining the mobile Pentium design. It is a refine architecture that is around 20 years old. AMD has a brand new architecture.

My point is that Intel doesn't have a lot of room to squeeze out performance. You can notice this because Intel is working on power consumption, not performance now. Everyone assumes that Intel is just focusing on power consumption because that's where the market is growing, but they haven't stopped to realize that it may be that Intel simply can't milk much more out of their old mobile Pentium design and they're relying on processing nodes and power consumption improvements. Obviously, it's probably a combination of those two, but that never seems to get mentioned.

Contrast that with AMD, who released a brand new architecture that has a ridiculous amount of room for improvement, and it's easy to see that unless Intel changes things, AMD actually has a good chance of catching up.

I mean, look at Haswell, it's basically 10% IPC increase with no clock increase (from the leaks I've seen), and then Broadwell will be the same chip on 14nm, so probably same performance per clock with better working turbo. So, with Tick Tock, Intel will rely on no performance increase for the next ~2 years.

Meanwhile, AMD is going to release PD 2.0 which allows for 10% higher clocks (and possible IPC improvements), and then will release or start shipping Steamroller at the end of this year, offering 30% IPC increase.

Simply put, this is basic calculus. AMD's rate of positive change is far greater than Intel's. So, eventually, AMD would catch up to Intel (and exceed) Intel if these current trends continued. Which is probably why Intel is going to drop Tick Tock.

A 10% increase for the next 2 years can not compete with 10% and then another 30% in a single year. if AMD does manage to increase performance 40% per year continually, it will beat Intel unless Intel changes their rate of improvement or AMD slows down.

Intel has not been releasing good products compared to their past. They simply look good compared to what AMD is offering. Had Intel or AMD had performance increases on Intel's current level of 10% every two years in the 90s or early 00s, things would be absymal.

To put 10% every two years into perspective, lets look at Pentium 4 at 1.5ghz. Willamette was released in 2000. So

2002 we would have the equivalent of 1.65ghz single core Pentium 4
2004 we would have the equivalent of 1.815ghz single core Pentium 4
2006 we would have the equivalent of 1.99ghz single core Pentium 4
2008 we would have the equivalent of 2.19ghz single core Pentium 4
2010 we would have the equivalent of 2.4ghz Single core Pentium 4
2012 we would have the equivalent of 2.66ghz single core Pentium 4
2014 we would have the equivalent of 2.92ghz single core Pentium 4

Obviously, in the 00s, we had much better rate of performance increase than what I've listed. From 2000 to 2008 we basically went from 1.5ghz single core Pentium 4 netburst to Core i7 quad core.

AMD has not done much better, but they are increasing faster.

Nice essay bro. A+
post #77 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by sockpirate View Post

Warning WALL OF TEXT! (Click to show)

Let me make this easier for you then by creating an arbitrary value to represent performance

Intel = 1
AMD = .5 (assuming AMD is half the speed of Intel)

if Intel grows at 10% every two years

year 1: 1
year 2: 1.1
year 3: 1.1
year 4: 1.21
year 5: 1.21
year 6: 1.33
year 7: 1.33

if AMD grows 30% every year
year 1: .65
year 2: .85
year 3: 1.09
year 4: 1.43
year 5: 1.86
year 6: 2.41
year 7: 3.14

It's basic calculus, I don't see what's so hard to grasp. If things continue how they have been AMD will beat Intel. It's basic math. Realistically things are probably going to change. I don't see AMD maintaining 30% increase per year and I don't see Intel being satisfied with 10% every 2 years. However, AMD has a lot more room to grow and it's common sense. Even Pentium 4 ended up being somewhat decent towards the end of it's life, mainly because it was a new architecture which had a lot of room to grow.
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post #78 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by VoodooActual View Post

Or the equally over-the-top environmentalist.

And people who have high electricity costs.
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post #79 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Why do consumers need quad-channel memory?
Why do consumer need more cores? Most consumer workloads are not that parallel.

Besides, what the mainstream market really wants is lower-power consumption... not more cores or performance.
The server market wants more performance per watt through more cores or higher IPC.

What enthusiasts want isn't that relevant.
There's nothing that would stop Intel from integrating into HSA.

is this a "Computer control" debate/ arguement?

The question is not "why do we need it...." its "why the hell not!?"

Its called capitalism and free markets. If there is an interest for such things and a demand then SUPPLY it. "Build it and they will come" you want consumer markets to crawl when they should be at a full out sprint. Consumer markets push innovation just as much as business or military needs for more computing power. case in point folding teams? how about start up engineering firms? these are people who don't care about the power they use really but need the raw horsepower to make their goals happen.....so give it to them!
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post #80 of 210
Consumers are likely going to need more cores for gaming soon. Rumor is that the new ps4 uses an 8 core bulldozer CPU and if so games on PC are gonna get multithreaded as heck.
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Snapdragon 801 @ 2.5 Ghz Adreno 330 3 GB 32 GB  
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Blow on it Android 4.4.4 1920x1080 LCD 
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