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Amd Steamroller. The secret weapon that could decimate Intel - Page 10

post #91 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by j3st3r View Post

I honestly don't know what AMDs deal is. Its like we sit here and see Intels profits and all theorize that they must invest it heavily into their CPU line but we all know they don't. More than likely they just shove it into corporate wallets. AMD has nobody to blame but themselves for dropping the ball consecutively on 2 major core releases. At some point they have to sit down and ask themselves what the hell they expect to achieve.

.... Just read their SEC filing or listen to investor calls if you want to understand where Intel spends their money. Just as a note, Intel requires all divisions to have 60% margins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ledzepp3 View Post

It's not about who can crush who, Intel needs a good competitor to drive the industry forward, and without competition, innovation and creative thinking stops.

It's called ARM.
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post #92 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Silicon is good for at least another decade, maybe two....
The Xeon Phi power is in the lower learning curve. Hopefully, HSA will bring a more universal and standard way to code for GPUs.
10% IPC but at lower power consumption.
Because the consumer market has no idea what they want. Most enthusiasts barely understand how CPUs work or their features.

I think this is the wrong point of view to take (at least in regards to what you and i were discussing). I think first of all you underestimate consumers although i grant you yes most don't understand things at a deeper level. However they even if all they can say is " I want more cores, more powerful and more efficient" that is more than enough to give impetus to intel amd etc to produce newer and better products as fast as they can and max the technology and push the market forward. why you may ask?

well first of all they will make more money. the fanatic way in which people buy the new apple product each time is a prime example. if they make something new and compelling then it will sell. also new avenues and opportunities for business will be born from increased performance as new games, new programs and new things can be done at a consumer level. if manufacturers don't push hard then things stagnate and they risk becoming (although maybe slowly) irrelevant

give people the options and they will find out for themselves what is needed or at minimum ask "what can be done now with this new tool?" imagine if nobody took the time to used nail guns instead of hammers or bolts instead of rivets.....both older technologies worked exceedingly well. but faster and more reliable with more production power is always the way to go.

So open the flood gates, don't let the innovation trickle out. its consumer profits that drive the R&D to make super computer chips needed for big engineering advancement ( where they make not as much profit, and sell far less units). customer is always right, and most customers want more!

And it is on the computer engineers at these companies to be good stewards of the public trust and only advertise and push a new product when it is truly an advancement
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post #93 of 210
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YuExZ.jpg
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post #94 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by oats2012 View Post

I think this is the wrong point of view to take (at least in regards to what you and i were discussing). I think first of all you underestimate consumers although i grant you yes most don't understand things at a deeper level. However they even if all they can say is " I want more cores, more powerful and more efficient" that is more than enough to give impetus to intel amd etc to produce newer and better products as fast as they can and max the technology and push the market forward. why you may ask?

well first of all they will make more money. the fanatic way in which people buy the new apple product each time is a prime example. if they make something new and compelling then it will sell. also new avenues and opportunities for business will be born from increased performance as new games, new programs and new things can be done at a consumer level. if manufacturers don't push hard then things stagnate and they risk becoming (although maybe slowly) irrelevant

give people the options and they will find out for themselves what is needed or at minimum ask "what can be done now with this new tool?" imagine if nobody took the time to used nail guns instead of hammers or bolts instead of rivets.....both older technologies worked exceedingly well. but faster and more reliable with more production power is always the way to go.

So open the flood gates, don't let the innovation trickle out. its consumer profits that drive the R&D to make super computer chips needed for big engineering advancement ( where they make not as much profit, and sell far less units). customer is always right, and most customers want more!

And it is on the computer engineers at these companies to be good stewards of the public trust and only advertise and push a new product when it is truly an advancement

The thing is... Intel realized that "good enough" computing arrived shortly after Conroe era. Think about... for 95% of mainstream users, do they need more processing power than a 2-3GHz dual-core for everyday use? Just look at sale numbers of non-desktop/non-laptop computers.... people are getting by with vastly slower ARM CPUs and most are almost ok with it. ARM performance has to increase a bit more and they could be "good enough" for most people.

Other than rendering or other high-end scalable tasks, what would general consumer use a 8-core 4GHz CPU for? If you look at Intel's recent roadmap and focus, you will notice power consumption is basically more important than pure performance now.

Consumers are NOT screaming for more cores or performance (well, maybe more GPU performance). Consumers are screaming for more battery life, thinner, quieter, cheaper, etc.
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post #95 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

4GB here and I can play a game while having 4-5 chrome tabs opened on the second screen and folding on 2 CPU cores. Nothing slows down.

You have got a serious problem somwehere, as my Trinity rig has 6.2GB usable for Windows and uses even less RAM than my main system.

I have no problems serious or other vice. The system is working as it should. Its not like chrome takes up 8GB running 5 tabs rolleyes.gif Even now I have like 15 tabs open and that's little by my standards (as well as plenty of other things). Even when I do have a crap load of tabs open and the system is sitting at 10-11GB ram usage I can still launch any game and run it with zero issues. Why? Because the system sees that x amount of ram needs to be freed up to run the game and transfers the over flow to the page file. When I close the game the data is then transferred back to the system ram. No slowdowns no issues.

The only time when there can be an issue is when I use After effects as it can suddenly hog up insane amounts of ram faster then chrome can release it. Solution. I don't try and run After effects and +50 chrome tabs at the same time thumb.gif
    
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post #96 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by oats2012 View Post

I think this is the wrong point of view to take (at least in regards to what you and i were discussing). I think first of all you underestimate consumers although i grant you yes most don't understand things at a deeper level. However they even if all they can say is " I want more cores, more powerful and more efficient" that is more than enough to give impetus to intel amd etc to produce newer and better products as fast as they can and max the technology and push the market forward. why you may ask?

well first of all they will make more money. the fanatic way in which people buy the new apple product each time is a prime example. if they make something new and compelling then it will sell. also new avenues and opportunities for business will be born from increased performance as new games, new programs and new things can be done at a consumer level. if manufacturers don't push hard then things stagnate and they risk becoming (although maybe slowly) irrelevant

give people the options and they will find out for themselves what is needed or at minimum ask "what can be done now with this new tool?" imagine if nobody took the time to used nail guns instead of hammers or bolts instead of rivets.....both older technologies worked exceedingly well. but faster and more reliable with more production power is always the way to go.

So open the flood gates, don't let the innovation trickle out. its consumer profits that drive the R&D to make super computer chips needed for big engineering advancement ( where they make not as much profit, and sell far less units). customer is always right, and most customers want more!

And it is on the computer engineers at these companies to be good stewards of the public trust and only advertise and push a new product when it is truly an advancement

The thing is... Intel realized that "good enough" computing arrived shortly after Conroe era. Think about... for 95% of mainstream users, do they need more processing power than a 2-3GHz dual-core for everyday use? Just look at sale numbers of non-desktop/non-laptop computers.... people are getting by with vastly slower ARM CPUs and most are almost ok with it. ARM performance has to increase a bit more and they could be "good enough" for most people.

Other than rendering or other high-end scalable tasks, what would general consumer use a 8-core 4GHz CPU for? If you look at Intel's recent roadmap and focus, you will notice power consumption is basically more important than pure performance now.

Consumers are NOT screaming for more cores or performance (well, maybe more GPU performance). Consumers are screaming for more battery life, thinner, quieter, cheaper, etc.

beyond that, if it were not for the larger and larger ram and cpu use of each windows release people would be fine on P4's. Heck, most people could use a raspi for everything. Many people I know use just their phone, and not even the latest ones, for everything. ARM, is the major competitor of both AMD and Intel now.
post #97 of 210
I guess I will sub to this, I like seeing both sides of the discussion.
 
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post #98 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Charlie is saying that Intel is dropping Tick Tock for something different. Honestly, it's no surprise that they're doing this. Ever since the Tick Tock model was introduced, CPU performance increase has been abysmal.

Here's out everything looks since the end of 2008 when Nehalem was introduced. :

Nehalem -> Westmere (no IPC increase) -> Westmere -> Sandy Bridge (about 10% to 15% IPC increase) -> Sandy Bridge -> Ivy Bridge (0% to 5% IPC increase, performance gains only come from better working turbo which means nothing to overclockers. Also, Ivy Bridge took an overclocking penalty) -> Ivy Bridge -> Haswell (10% IPC increase).

So basically, since the end of 2008, we've seen generations of CPUs that offer pretty much 10% IPC increases every two years.

Intel definitely has realized this and it's realized that not only AMD, but ARM is growing in performance much more rapidly than Intel is.

And, everyone seems to forget this, but Intel is just refining the mobile Pentium design. It is a refine architecture that is around 20 years old. AMD has a brand new architecture.

My point is that Intel doesn't have a lot of room to squeeze out performance. You can notice this because Intel is working on power consumption, not performance now. Everyone assumes that Intel is just focusing on power consumption because that's where the market is growing, but they haven't stopped to realize that it may be that Intel simply can't milk much more out of their old mobile Pentium design and they're relying on processing nodes and power consumption improvements. Obviously, it's probably a combination of those two, but that never seems to get mentioned.

Contrast that with AMD, who released a brand new architecture that has a ridiculous amount of room for improvement, and it's easy to see that unless Intel changes things, AMD actually has a good chance of catching up.

I mean, look at Haswell, it's basically 10% IPC increase with no clock increase (from the leaks I've seen), and then Broadwell will be the same chip on 14nm, so probably same performance per clock with better working turbo. So, with Tick Tock, Intel will rely on no performance increase for the next ~2 years.

Meanwhile, AMD is going to release PD 2.0 which allows for 10% higher clocks (and possible IPC improvements), and then will release or start shipping Steamroller at the end of this year, offering 30% IPC increase.

Simply put, this is basic calculus. AMD's rate of positive change is far greater than Intel's. So, eventually, AMD would catch up to Intel (and exceed) Intel if these current trends continued. Which is probably why Intel is going to drop Tick Tock.

A 10% increase for the next 2 years can not compete with 10% and then another 30% in a single year. if AMD does manage to increase performance 40% per year continually, it will beat Intel unless Intel changes their rate of improvement or AMD slows down.

Intel has not been releasing good products compared to their past. They simply look good compared to what AMD is offering. Had Intel or AMD had performance increases on Intel's current level of 10% every two years in the 90s or early 00s, things would be absymal.

To put 10% every two years into perspective, lets look at Pentium 4 at 1.5ghz. Willamette was released in 2000. So

2002 we would have the equivalent of 1.65ghz single core Pentium 4
2004 we would have the equivalent of 1.815ghz single core Pentium 4
2006 we would have the equivalent of 1.99ghz single core Pentium 4
2008 we would have the equivalent of 2.19ghz single core Pentium 4
2010 we would have the equivalent of 2.4ghz Single core Pentium 4
2012 we would have the equivalent of 2.66ghz single core Pentium 4
2014 we would have the equivalent of 2.92ghz single core Pentium 4

Obviously, in the 00s, we had much better rate of performance increase than what I've listed. From 2000 to 2008 we basically went from 1.5ghz single core Pentium 4 netburst to Core i7 quad core.

AMD has not done much better, but they are increasing faster.

You mean the only increase is because they when back 1 step and they are back to PII IPC which was tops 5% better then the limited OCed PI and PI was next to no faster IPC then Athlon. Intel has slowed down but AMD has not really done much. Unless AMD does FX 8350 every year its hard for them to catch up.
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post #99 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkill View Post


AMD is doing fairly well considering the node advantage Intel has.
AMD still does better in Multi Threaded tasks, Really it depends on what the user wants.

Most people don't play computer games. If someone wanted a Great performing CPU for a good cost AMD offers Killer performance. AMD's FX 6300 is a better deal then a i3 3220, Intel makes some great CPU's but So does AMD.

For Normal users they are better off with a AMD APU then a i3. Hell most people don't need anything more then the CPU performance brought by Core2Duos.
Edited by DzillaXx - 2/3/13 at 7:54pm
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5TB Toshiba 5TB Toshiba 5TB Toshiba 2TB Hitachi 
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Red Dragon
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3x 640 WD blacks Raid 0 Mushkin Enhanced Reactor 512GB SSD Sandisk 1TB SSD Samsung 470 Series 128GB SSD 
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XSPC Raystorm Windows 10 64bit Microboard m340clz 100hz 3440x1440 Corsair K70 
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Q9550 @ 4GHZ Gigabyte EP45 UD3P GTX470 4GB OCZ Reaper 1150mhz 
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Western Digital Blue 500gb OCZ Vertex 2 60GB LG Bluray Corsair H50 
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Yamaha HTR-5063 PS3 80GB BC PS3 with 250GB hard drive. Polk Audio Monitor 60s Bi-AMP Front Polk Audio Monitor 30s Rear 
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Xeon Harpertown 3.6ghz Asus P5Q SE/R HD7770 4GB DDR2 800mhz Corsair 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
5TB Toshiba 5TB Toshiba 5TB Toshiba 2TB Hitachi 
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2TB Seagate 2TB Western Digital 1TB Hitachi Windows Home Server 2011 
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post #100 of 210
There really need to be a "Rumour Mill" or "Speculation" sub-forum for this crap so I don't have to dig through all of this rubbish to find real information.
APU what?
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APU what?
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
AMD A8-3850 Llano(FM1) Gigabyte GA-A75-UD4H 4x G.Skill 4Gb DDR3 3x WD 
Optical DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
LG DVD Seven64 LG 19"LCD / Panny 42"Plasma Logitech Cordless Elite 
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