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post #161 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Just like how a lot of people magically forget that it's simply a powerful tablet as the stuff that enables you to use it more like a laptop is utter crap. (Touch Keyboard doesn't work that well, fixed angle, etc)

There's also the fact I'm considering the Thinkpad Twist because it has all of the benefits of the shared laptop/tablet design without the negatives of a touch keyboard.

Yes, the Surface Pro is a powerful tablet that can be used like a laptop.

Obviously a tablet isn't going to have the characteristics of a laptop, but that's because it's a tablet........not a laptop?

The stuff that enables you to use it more like a laptop aren't "crap" just because they don't "fully" allow you to use it like a laptop and expecting it to do so is stupid. Because its a tablet.

The kickstand is an addition to the tablet form factor that I'm sure 99.9% of current tablet owners would LOVE to have, fixed angle or not.


Your preference is obviously a Laptop>Tablet hybrid vs the Tablet>Laptop hybrid, which is fine, but it's slightly narrow minded to assume that the alternative to your preferred is universally "crap" because you don't like it.


Your entire argument is the equivalent of me calling the Thinkpad Twist and "the stuff that enables you to use it more like a tablet is utter crap" because the thinkpad is too big to be held like a tablet in one hand and it doesn't "even" come with a Wacom digitizer.

Then I could say "I'm considering the Surface Pro because it has all of the benefits of the shared laptop/tablet design without the negatives of being heavy/lacking digitizer/takes up too much space in my bag/etc".

Totally ignoring the fact that its actually a laptop.


Ignorantly assuming that "all the benefits" of these hybrids exist solely within what I deem to be relevant, when the truth is that NONE of them can have "all the benefits" because of how different they are.

We have choices for a reason.

People have different preferences and demands for their personal devices, which is obviously going to determine what form factor they prefer, but it seems like people literally can't get their heads around that fact.

I wanted to buy a Lenovo Yoga for instance, but due to the fact that I'm always on my feet at work, I decided to go with a Samsung ATIV as its more portable. That doesn't mean the tablet side of the Yoga is "crap", it means its not designed for the demands I'd have for it.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 2/13/13 at 7:03pm
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post #162 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

What's the point of your post? I said that in my post and admitted it's only something that affects me, as for other tablets I'm still waiting to see...Although considering most of the ones I'd get would be convertables and not true tablets I'd imagine it'd be as easy to do as a normal laptop.
Just like how a lot of people magically forget that it's simply a powerful tablet as the stuff that enables you to use it more like a laptop is utter crap. (Touch Keyboard doesn't work that well, fixed angle, etc)

There's also the fact I'm considering the Thinkpad Twist because it has all of the benefits of the shared laptop/tablet design without the negatives of a touch keyboard.

In SP's defense you are not forced to buy the touch cover, you can also get the type cover and having typed on it at a local store it is not that much different from a ultrabook keyboard.
Edited by sherlock - 2/13/13 at 7:29pm
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post #163 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

In SP's defense you are not forced to buy the touch cover, you can also get the type cover which only commands a $10 premium and having typed on it at a local store it feels just like a ultrabook keyboard.

sure, but you still can't use it on your lap like an actual laptop. you have to have a Surface, i mean surface to, to be productive.
post #164 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Just like how a lot of people magically forget that it's simply a powerful tablet as the stuff that enables you to use it more like a laptop is utter crap. (Touch Keyboard doesn't work that well, fixed angle, etc)

There's also the fact I'm considering the Thinkpad Twist because it has all of the benefits of the shared laptop/tablet design without the negatives of a touch keyboard.

Yes, the Surface Pro is a powerful tablet that can be used like a laptop.

Obviously a tablet isn't going to have the characteristics of a laptop, but that's because it's a tablet........not a laptop?

The stuff that enables you to use it more like a laptop aren't "crap" just because they don't "fully" allow you to use it like a laptop and expecting it to do so is stupid. Because its a tablet.

The kickstand is an addition to the tablet form factor that I'm sure 99.9% of current tablet owners would LOVE to have, fixed angle or not.


Your preference is obviously a Laptop>Tablet hybrid vs the Tablet>Laptop hybrid, which is fine, but it's slightly narrow minded to assume that the alternative to your preferred is universally "crap" because you don't like it.


Your entire argument is the equivalent of me calling the Thinkpad Twist and "the stuff that enables you to use it more like a tablet is utter crap" because the thinkpad is too big to be held like a tablet in one hand and it doesn't "even" come with a Wacom digitizer.

Then I could say "I'm considering the Surface Pro because it has all of the benefits of the shared laptop/tablet design without the negatives of being heavy/lacking digitizer/takes up too much space in my bag/etc".

Totally ignoring the fact that its actually a laptop.


Ignorantly assuming that "all the benefits" of these hybrids exist solely within what I deem to be relevant, when the truth is that NONE of them can have "all the benefits" because of how different they are.

We have choices for a reason.

People have different preferences and demands for their personal devices, which is obviously going to determine what form factor they prefer, but it seems like people literally can't get their heads around that fact.

I wanted to buy a Lenovo Yoga for instance, but due to the fact that I'm always on my feet at work, I decided to go with a Samsung ATIV as its more portable. That doesn't mean the tablet side of the Yoga is "crap", it means its not designed for the demands I'd have for it.

Then why would I want one? Why would nearly anyone want one? Virtually everything people do on tablets is done fine on a weaker ARM chip with Windows RT, Android or iOS, the amount of stuff that you can't do but would likely do is small, so the main benefit is combining your laptop and tablet into one device that can fulfil both roles, that's how most people will see it...The amount of people who use an iPad, Nexus 7/10, Galaxy Tab, etc and think "I wish I could play Diablo 3 on this" or something is insanely small.
And the keyboard actually is unarguably crap.

Considering the massive amount of time given to the Touch Keyboard in the Surface ads (The ones I've seen all feature it for most of the ad) MS agrees with me that convertibles are definitely the way to go, Surface Pro compromises too much to be more of a tablet and a niche product. Seriously, what you're saying against the Twist as an example is an anthill compared to the mountain of the keyboard requiring you to dramatically change the way you type (Slightly different layout, have to press harder, etc) which had a lot to do with Netbooks not really taking off. My point is that the Surface Pro is a niche product, there's much better choices elsewhere and it's completely unneeded for the majority of people who would use their tablets to browse Facebook, Youtube, etc and maybe take a few photos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

What's the point of your post? I said that in my post and admitted it's only something that affects me, as for other tablets I'm still waiting to see...Although considering most of the ones I'd get would be convertables and not true tablets I'd imagine it'd be as easy to do as a normal laptop.
Just like how a lot of people magically forget that it's simply a powerful tablet as the stuff that enables you to use it more like a laptop is utter crap. (Touch Keyboard doesn't work that well, fixed angle, etc)

There's also the fact I'm considering the Thinkpad Twist because it has all of the benefits of the shared laptop/tablet design without the negatives of a touch keyboard.

In SP's defense you are not forced to buy the touch cover, you can also get the type cover and having typed on it at a local store it feels just like a ultrabook keyboard.

Oh yeah, that's actually nice...However this really asks you about the quality: "My only complaint with Type Cover was that it would randomly stop accepting keystrokes in mid sentence, sometimes even in the middle of a word."
    
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post #165 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectblade View Post

sure, but you still can't use it on your lap like an actual laptop. you have to have a Surface, i mean surface to, to be productive.

biggrin.gif

Yes if you want something to be productive on your lap(this sounds so wrong wink.gif ) with, you will need to use the Samsung ATIV or a laptop.
Edited by sherlock - 2/13/13 at 9:23pm
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post #166 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Then why would I want one? Why would nearly anyone want one? Virtually everything people do on tablets is done fine on a weaker ARM chip with Windows RT, Android or iOS, the amount of stuff that you can't do but would likely do is small, so the main benefit is combining your laptop and tablet into one device that can fulfil both roles, that's how most people will see it...The amount of people who use an iPad, Nexus 7/10, Galaxy Tab, etc and think "I wish I could play Diablo 3 on this" or something is insanely small.
And the keyboard actually is unarguably crap.

Considering the massive amount of time given to the Touch Keyboard in the Surface ads (The ones I've seen all feature it for most of the ad) MS agrees with me that convertibles are definitely the way to go, Surface Pro compromises too much to be more of a tablet and a niche product. Seriously, what you're saying against the Twist as an example is an anthill compared to the mountain of the keyboard requiring you to dramatically change the way you type (Slightly different layout, have to press harder, etc) which had a lot to do with Netbooks not really taking off. My point is that the Surface Pro is a niche product, there's much better choices elsewhere and it's completely unneeded for the majority of people who would use their tablets to browse Facebook, Youtube, etc and maybe take a few photos.
Oh yeah, that's actually nice...However this really asks you about the quality: "My only complaint with Type Cover was that it would randomly stop accepting keystrokes in mid sentence, sometimes even in the middle of a word."

Again, you refuse to look at it from any other perspective than your own. Its not hard to see why you can't find any uses for it.

Why would anyone want it? Over say a Thinkpad Twist?

Wacom digitizer.

Smaller device.

They actually WANT a tablet that can allow them to use it for x86 programs (that an Atom wouldn't allow) when they wish.

To use it as a tablet on short journeys, then connect it to display monitors/televisions as a super portable all in one device that fits in a medium sized purse.

They are like me and benefit from being able to walk around with a pc/stylus in their hands at work instead of using something as bulky and cumbersome as a Thinkpad Twist.


And your consistent assertion that there are "much better choices" is voided simply by the fact that the computer you deem to be a "better choice" does absolutely none of those things
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 2/13/13 at 7:46pm
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post #167 of 183
Opinions are just that. We all have personal preferences, hence why I like a desktop. For portability there are other reasons to take around a tablet or laptop. My only dislike of this tablet is the exponential loss of disk-space. A traditional tablet does not lose as much space. I still see it much like a tablet, but I do understand the power of a laptop. I give it that much for my use. I prefer a simpler tablet or laptop for the various mobile uses.
post #168 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Again, you refuse to look at it from any other perspective than your own. Its not hard to see why you can't find any uses for it.

Why would anyone want it? Over say a Thinkpad Twist?

Wacom digitizer.

Smaller device.

They actually WANT a tablet that can allow them to use it for x86 programs (that an Atom wouldn't allow) when they wish.

To use it as a tablet on short journeys, then connect it to display monitors/televisions as a super portable all in one device that fits in a medium sized purse.

They are like me and benefit from being able to walk around with a pc/stylus in their hands at work instead of using something as bulky and cumbersome as a Thinkpad Twist.


And your consistent assertion that there are "much better choices" is voided simply by the fact that the computer you deem to be a "better choice" does absolutely none of those things

you're relativizing this too much. yeah, it's basically a standard windows tablet and those have been out forever and yeah it makes sense for those who have traditionally used windows tablets, a small minority.

that doesn't change the fact that it's a poor laptop replacement for several key reasons, unless you always plug you laptop into an external display and use it at a desk
post #169 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectblade View Post

you're relativizing this too much. yeah, it's basically a standard windows tablet and those have been out forever and yeah it makes sense for those who have traditionally used windows tablets, a small minority.

that doesn't change the fact that it's a poor laptop replacement for several key reasons, unless you always plug you laptop into an external display and use it at a desk

I don't see Surface as a laptop replacement, I personally see it as a tablet replacement with tons of extra functionality.

I'd personally like one, because it would allow me to use the tablet for real work.

Battery life is the one major downside that makes it unattractive vs tablets, which is why I wouldn't consider this product until Haswell hits.
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post #170 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Again, you refuse to look at it from any other perspective than your own. Its not hard to see why you can't find any uses for it.

Why would anyone want it? Over say a Thinkpad Twist?

Wacom digitizer.

Smaller device.

They actually WANT a tablet that can allow them to use it for x86 programs (that an Atom wouldn't allow) when they wish.

To use it as a tablet on short journeys, then connect it to display monitors/televisions as a super portable all in one device that fits in a medium sized purse.

They are like me and benefit from being able to walk around with a pc/stylus in their hands at work instead of using something as bulky and cumbersome as a Thinkpad Twist.


And your consistent assertion that there are "much better choices" is voided simply by the fact that the computer you deem to be a "better choice" does absolutely none of those things

You mean like virtually every Windows 8 lover on OCN? If full x86 tablets are so great, why didn't they become popular straight away and stay popular? The fact is that most people do not need an full x86 tablet.

Wacom digitizer? Most people aren't even going to know what a digitizer does, let alone which ones are better beyond maybe trying the products in store.
Smaller? Fair enough, although I'd imagine the type of person who would need a x86 tablet with a full copy of Windows over an ARM/x86 one with Android/iOS/WinRT isn't going to be too phased over such a small difference.

"They actually WANT a tablet that can allow them to use it for x86 programs (that an Atom wouldn't allow) when they wish."
They being whom? Why? How do you know the majority of people would want a full x86 chip in their tablets considering all most people do is take photos, go on facebook and other websites, watch movies and listen to music?

You're saying I refuse to look at it from other perspectives, however you clearly are doing that...I'm also saying that the perspective where a Surface Pro can't be replaced by something much better than it (eg. Nexus 7, Surface RT, iPad, Thinkpad Twist, IdeaPad Yoga, etc) is a very, very niche perspective.
Also, if you have trouble walking around and using a laptop in your hands (I manage to do it with a bloody 15.6" laptop, a 12.6" convertable would be childs play) then you really must have arms made of straw.
    
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