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[Anandtech] Microsoft Surface Pro Review - Page 18

post #171 of 183
I don't know about you guys but I can 100% see a sucessful future for this product. If you get a more power efficient processor in there it becomes a workhorse!
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post #172 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGX1016 View Post

I don't know about you guys but I can 100% see a sucessful future for this product. If you get a more power efficient processor in there it becomes a workhorse!

i think you forgot to read the previous page of this thread
Edited by perfectblade - 2/14/13 at 12:50am
post #173 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

You mean like virtually every Windows 8 lover on OCN? If full x86 tablets are so great, why didn't they become popular straight away and stay popular? The fact is that most people do not need an full x86 tablet.

Wacom digitizer? Most people aren't even going to know what a digitizer does, let alone which ones are better beyond maybe trying the products in store.
Smaller? Fair enough, although I'd imagine the type of person who would need a x86 tablet with a full copy of Windows over an ARM/x86 one with Android/iOS/WinRT isn't going to be too phased over such a small difference.

"They actually WANT a tablet that can allow them to use it for x86 programs (that an Atom wouldn't allow) when they wish."
They being whom? Why? How do you know the majority of people would want a full x86 chip in their tablets considering all most people do is take photos, go on facebook and other websites, watch movies and listen to music?

You're saying I refuse to look at it from other perspectives, however you clearly are doing that...I'm also saying that the perspective where a Surface Pro can't be replaced by something much better than it (eg. Nexus 7, Surface RT, iPad, Thinkpad Twist, IdeaPad Yoga, etc) is a very, very niche perspective.
Also, if you have trouble walking around and using a laptop in your hands (I manage to do it with a bloody 15.6" laptop, a 12.6" convertable would be childs play) then you really must have arms made of straw.

Please.

The "most people do not need a full x86 tablet" is a dead point, due to the fact that they never had a viable choice on the market before October 26th 2012.

Most people "didn't need" just an oversized iPhone aka iPad a few years ago either, but we've all seen how that went.

Once more, you need to stop assuming that the only possibility that you can think of is the one that exists.

When you have to carry around tools, electrical testing equipment hanging from your neck, ladders etc a laptop is not ideal. And the reason I'd need to carry it around is to use the touch interface and pen as an input device to enter data instead of faffing around with a touchpad and keyboard.

Second of all, I never said I "know" the majority of people would want a full x86 chip in their tablets, but I love how you're trying to make something there. The majority of people don't like gaming on PCs, so?? Should we follow your lead and start asking "why anyone would want to game on PCs" when there are other things that are "better" like an xbox/ps3?


I have to wonder whether its even worth replying to you anymore after seeing you blatantly state your opinion that a Nexus 7 is "better" than a SP when its a completely different product class with completely different overall capabilities.


I don't think I've ever seen you posting so ignorantly.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 2/14/13 at 2:38am
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post #174 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

You mean like virtually every Windows 8 lover on OCN? If full x86 tablets are so great, why didn't they become popular straight away and stay popular? The fact is that most people do not need an full x86 tablet.

Wacom digitizer? Most people aren't even going to know what a digitizer does, let alone which ones are better beyond maybe trying the products in store.
Smaller? Fair enough, although I'd imagine the type of person who would need a x86 tablet with a full copy of Windows over an ARM/x86 one with Android/iOS/WinRT isn't going to be too phased over such a small difference.

"They actually WANT a tablet that can allow them to use it for x86 programs (that an Atom wouldn't allow) when they wish."
They being whom? Why? How do you know the majority of people would want a full x86 chip in their tablets considering all most people do is take photos, go on facebook and other websites, watch movies and listen to music?

You're saying I refuse to look at it from other perspectives, however you clearly are doing that...I'm also saying that the perspective where a Surface Pro can't be replaced by something much better than it (eg. Nexus 7, Surface RT, iPad, Thinkpad Twist, IdeaPad Yoga, etc) is a very, very niche perspective.
Also, if you have trouble walking around and using a laptop in your hands (I manage to do it with a bloody 15.6" laptop, a 12.6" convertable would be childs play) then you really must have arms made of straw.

Please.

The "most people do not need a full x86 tablet" is a dead point, due to the fact that they never had a viable choice on the market before October 26th 2012.

Most people "didn't need" just an oversized iPhone aka iPad a few years ago either, but we've all seen how that went.

Once more, you need to stop assuming that the only possibility that you can think of is the one that exists.

When you have to carry around tools, electrical testing equipment hanging from your neck, ladders etc a laptop is not ideal. And the reason I'd need to carry it around is to use the touch interface and pen as an input device to enter data instead of faffing around with a touchpad and keyboard.

Second of all, I never said I "know" the majority of people would want a full x86 chip in their tablets, but I love how you're trying to make something there. The majority of people don't like gaming on PCs, so?? Should we follow your lead and start asking "why anyone would want to game on PCs" when there are other things that are "better" like an xbox/ps3?

I have to wonder whether its even worth replying to you anymore after seeing you blatantly state your opinion that a Nexus 7 is "better" than a SP when its a completely different product class with completely different overall capabilities.

I don't think I've ever seen you posting so ignorantly.

"The "most people do not need a full x86 tablet" is a dead point, due to the fact that they never had a viable choice on the market before October 26th 2012."

Why? Tell me, what does the average person do that you cannot do at adequate speeds on a normal ARM tablet? The difference was the tablets before the iPad were literally laptops that could do less and were harder to type into, the Surface Pro simply adds on to that...It doesn't completely change the game the way the iPad and various Android tablets did.
I've looked into it heavily, you're the one who is assuming stuff too rapidly, once again: Give me reasons why a normal person would take one over a much cheaper Nexus 7, Nexus 10, iPad, etc. You're talking about your use which is not mainstream, you even said you preferred the ATIV which furthers my point that the Surface Pro just doesn't really have that much of a market, the other Windows 8 tablets/convertibles are superior. Also, if you're going to be complaining about 1.6KG then I have no idea how you manage to carry any of that around at all, I'm carrying heavy guitar amps, computers, etc all the time as part of my various hobbies, University work and my job...For the most part a convertable would be superior to the Surface Pro as it can fold into a tablet, but can still be pretty much a light laptop with a different hinge if you need to type. Is it for you? No, but you're not disproving what I was saying in that the Surface Pro is a niche product at best.

You said "They", who else are they? Deep Sea Angler Fish? Eagles? The CIA? Your analogy about PC gaming being worse thanks to the Xbox and PS3 doesn't work and only proves my point, PC gaming (Surface Pro) can do more than what console gaming (Nexus 7, iPad, Nexus 10, etc) can do...However that doesn't make it more popular as most people are fine with what the consoles do for gaming.
It's not, both are tablets when it comes down to it, both will compete...Not many users are going to look at the Surface Pro and think "That's not a tablet!"
You can hardly talk about ignorant posting, you're completely ignoring what I'm saying in order to go "BUT IT CAN BE USEFUL!!!!" without actually saying why, I've given valid reasons as to why most people won't have a use and all you've done is talk about how it'd be useful for you while trying to imply that I'm doing just that, unless you bring something solid to the table instead of your usual "ignore what they said, repeat what I said" strategy then I'm not replying again.
    
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post #175 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz 
"The "most people do not need a full x86 tablet" is a dead point, due to the fact that they never had a viable choice on the market before October 26th 2012."

Why? Tell me, what does the average person do that you cannot do at adequate speeds on a normal ARM tablet? The difference was the tablets before the iPad were literally laptops that could do less and were harder to type into, the Surface Pro simply adds on to that...It doesn't completely change the game the way the iPad and various Android tablets did.
I've looked into it heavily, you're the one who is assuming stuff too rapidly, once again: Give me reasons why a normal person would take one over a much cheaper Nexus 7, Nexus 10, iPad, etc. You're talking about your use which is not mainstream, you even said you preferred the ATIV which furthers my point that the Surface Pro just doesn't really have that much of a market, the other Windows 8 tablets/convertibles are superior. Also, if you're going to be complaining about 1.6KG then I have no idea how you manage to carry any of that around at all, I'm carrying heavy guitar amps, computers, etc all the time as part of my various hobbies, University work and my job...For the most part a convertable would be superior to the Surface Pro as it can fold into a tablet, but can still be pretty much a light laptop with a different hinge if you need to type. Is it for you? No, but you're not disproving what I was saying in that the Surface Pro is a niche product at best.

You said "They", who else are they? Deep Sea Angler Fish? Eagles? The CIA? Your analogy about PC gaming being worse thanks to the Xbox and PS3 doesn't work and only proves my point, PC gaming (Surface Pro) can do more than what console gaming (Nexus 7, iPad, Nexus 10, etc) can do...However that doesn't make it more popular as most people are fine with what the consoles do for gaming.
It's not, both are tablets when it comes down to it, both will compete...Not many users are going to look at the Surface Pro and think "That's not a tablet!"
You can hardly talk about ignorant posting, you're completely ignoring what I'm saying in order to go "BUT IT CAN BE USEFUL!!!!" without actually saying why, I've given valid reasons as to why most people won't have a use and all you've done is talk about how it'd be useful for you while trying to imply that I'm doing just that, unless you bring something solid to the table instead of your usual "ignore what they said, repeat what I said" strategy then I'm not replying again.

1.
You want me to give you a reason why a person would choose an x86 running computer in the shape of/with the capabilities of a tablet, vs a Nexus 7?

Really?

You can't work that out for yourself?

2.
I didn't "prefer" the ATIV, it simply released before the Surface Pro and I was jonesing lol. If it was available on time I probably would've bought one. Even now I'm still looking around to try different types out since there are so many options. Would be great if I could actually see a SP but that won't happen any time soon.

3.
Why are you comparing how much you carry etc to what I do in my job? Who cares?

I'm not complaining about carrying around 1.6KG. You asked me why a person would want to use a SP over a thinkpad twist that is supposedly "better".

I gave you one.

Its larger and heavier and doesn't offer the same elegance in "on foot" usage that an actual tablet format provides. If you're actually a person who needs to use a laptop in an actual professional environment where a lot of movement and data input is needed, you'd know precisely what I'm talking about.

You can sling an ATIV or a SP in a cover with carry handles and walk around with it without too much heft or cumbersome dimensions hampering movement etc.

You are indeed being very ignorant in that respect by attempting to assert that the Thinkpad Twist is even slightly comparable in that respect. It isn't, by a long shot.

Asking me how everyone else would use theirs is to ignorantly assume that I would know. I can give personal use situations because its something that I've thought about and used to influence purchase of a similar form factor vs the laptop that turns into a tablet form factor.

If you want to know what other people would use it for, ask them. Me not being able to answer for other people isn't a positive to your argument.

4.
Quote:
Your analogy about PC gaming being worse thanks to the Xbox and PS3 doesn't work and only proves my point, PC gaming (Surface Pro) can do more than what console gaming (Nexus 7, iPad, Nexus 10, etc) can do...However that doesn't make it more popular as most people are fine with what the consoles do for gaming.

Actually, you've CONFIRMED the point I was actually making, in that just because something is not the most popular thing doesn't make it bad or mean that nobody will want to use it.


5.
Calling a Nexus 7/iPad "better" than a Surface Pro is ignorance. Plain and simple.

Tell me how I can install my Windows data entry software on a Nexus 7/iPad and I'll concede. Until then, I'll continue to believe that words like "better" work on a case by case basis, usually because different people have different opinions and needs.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 2/14/13 at 3:47am
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post #176 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

You mean like virtually every Windows 8 lover on OCN? If full x86 tablets are so great, why didn't they become popular straight away and stay popular? The fact is that most people do not need an full x86 tablet.

Wacom digitizer? Most people aren't even going to know what a digitizer does, let alone which ones are better beyond maybe trying the products in store.
Smaller? Fair enough, although I'd imagine the type of person who would need a x86 tablet with a full copy of Windows over an ARM/x86 one with Android/iOS/WinRT isn't going to be too phased over such a small difference.

"They actually WANT a tablet that can allow them to use it for x86 programs (that an Atom wouldn't allow) when they wish."
They being whom? Why? How do you know the majority of people would want a full x86 chip in their tablets considering all most people do is take photos, go on facebook and other websites, watch movies and listen to music?

You're saying I refuse to look at it from other perspectives, however you clearly are doing that...I'm also saying that the perspective where a Surface Pro can't be replaced by something much better than it (eg. Nexus 7, Surface RT, iPad, Thinkpad Twist, IdeaPad Yoga, etc) is a very, very niche perspective.
Also, if you have trouble walking around and using a laptop in your hands (I manage to do it with a bloody 15.6" laptop, a 12.6" convertable would be childs play) then you really must have arms made of straw.

Why would you NOT want x86 programs?
If you want, you can use the Surface PRO strictly as a tablet and never even see the desktop view. Play angry birds all you want if you so desire. But with a surface Pro, I can download Daemontools, create Virtual disk drives and install ISOs of any program/game I've ever had. I could download bittorent on the thing if I wanted. I'm not limited to any bloatware that tablets make you use. I can use VLC player for my videos. I can game, plug in an xbox controller, use a wireless controller if I wanted, and play at very respectable settings. You can literally do any job on the go with this. I would have never thought that people were satisfied with just APPS, especially not on this forum.
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post #177 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Wow, there goes any chance at all I had of getting a Surface Pro...I'd want to be able to swap the SSD out so I can upgrade to larger sizes later down the track if I got one.

Before I get tonnes of people asking what the hell, no, it's not applicable for a normal consumer but it sure as hell is to me.
Aaaand you just ruined any credibility for the rest of your post, as someone who has a phone with similar PPI (218PPI in my SGSII) I can tell you that the difference is very noticeable.

you really think Ipad's pixel density is a game changer? The Surface Pro has a ppi of 208, compared to ipad 2's 163 and ipad 3's 264. For perfect visual acuity, you'd have to view the ipad 2 from 26 inches away, a ipad 3 at 13 inches away, and a SF: PRO from 16.5 inches away. That's it, 3 inch difference. I doubt people hold their ipad 3's just 13 inches from their face. Most people will have it from 1.5-2 feet away. Especially if you're doing work on it. If you're watching Netflix....big whoop, not like the Ipad is better for video with its 4:3 aspect ratio.

So then the Google Nexus comes out with a complete 1600p screen.....shouldn't the Apple fanboys clamor over the screen with the bigger number?? Isn't "retina" a little watered down now? It's gimmicky marketing

PS: By gimmicky, i don't mean useless (a la PS3 move/ Kinect), but PPI is nearly irrelevant at the point we're at. Our eyes have a finite resolution, that's not going to change unless you have superman eyes. The higher resolution is nice, but at a horrible cost, the Ipad 2 (if it was given the ipad 3's battery) would last at least 20 hours
Edited by lacrossewacker - 2/14/13 at 6:08am
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post #178 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossewacker View Post

Why would you NOT want x86 programs?
If you want, you can use the Surface PRO strictly as a tablet and never even see the desktop view. Play angry birds all you want if you so desire. But with a surface Pro, I can download Daemontools, create Virtual disk drives and install ISOs of any program/game I've ever had. I could download bittorent on the thing if I wanted. I'm not limited to any bloatware that tablets make you use. I can use VLC player for my videos. I can game, plug in an xbox controller, use a wireless controller if I wanted, and play at very respectable settings. You can literally do any job on the go with this. I would have never thought that people were satisfied with just APPS, especially not on this forum.

because they aren't optimized for use with a stylus and touch keyboard? why wouldn't people be "satisfied" with apps-they are optimized for touch+stylus support, unlike x86
post #179 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectblade View Post

because they aren't optimized for use with a stylus and touch keyboard? why wouldn't people be "satisfied" with apps-they are optimized for touch+stylus support, unlike x86

There's no point applying such binary logic in this case though.

The whole point of the thing is to allow people to access both worlds. The touch optimised "apps" are there as and when they are needed. The regular x86 programs (some of which actually do support touch/stylus: Civilization 5/One Note/Various art programs/probably more to come, Gaben wants games like DotA2 to be tablet friendly etc) as and when they are needed.

The reason people wouldn't be "satisfied" with only "apps" is the reason why most people don't use ARM tablets for productivity. Because they do actually require x86 compatibility somewhere, either for work or for play.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 2/14/13 at 7:06am
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post #180 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectblade View Post

because they aren't optimized for use with a stylus and touch keyboard? why wouldn't people be "satisfied" with apps-they are optimized for touch+stylus support, unlike x86

I use MS office on my Surface RT just like I'd use it on a laptop....what are you getting at? It has a trackpad and a keyboard. If you want, use a mouse. I don't see the problem here. Trackpad on the keyboards work fine.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Anandtech] Microsoft Surface Pro Review