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[Twitter] Sim City 5 Main Sim + Game Loop Will Be Single-Threaded - Page 23  

post #221 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by biltong View Post

For the love of all that is good. It is NOT single threaded. I posted an explanation a while ago and then bumped it. If it were single threaded the entire game would pause while playing a sound or waiting for you to click a button, and it would hitch every time the GPU has to render a frame (though you wouldn't notice that). A game will not function without the use of threads. Do you even know what a thread is?

Most people don't, however just like the argument that Linux is a kernel and not an OS we both know exactly what he's talking about.
And he's right, most of the stuff that SC does on the extra threads are extremely easy to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huzzbutt View Post

Sim city 5 is a AAA title from one of the largest gaming corporations in the world, there's no excuse for using sub-mediocre techical solutions.

But if it really does make the difference between buying it or not buying it, then that person really is an idiot...If it runs well it runs well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBEAU View Post

This thread is very annoying. All I'm reading is a bunch of flaming responses from people who don't really get it. There seems to be some confusion over what this guy said but all the people with uber comps are pissed because they think the entire game is only going to use 1 core/thread.

Let me simplify it: Games have to do a lot, you've got the main game logic, (eg AI, maths for health/resources/whatever, etc) the audio, the parts that pass the GPU its instructions and a handful of others, the main game logic uses 1 thread while the rest can all run on separate threads despite not really needing to.

However, as has been said multiple times, the hardest bit to run in SC4 is now done on EAs servers in the cloud, so the single-threadedness of this game is moot...You likely could max it out on a single core Pentium 4 if it was overclocked and had a semi-decent GPU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Single core utilization for one part of the game != Single threaded game.

By that logic, if I made a game run a loop that literally did nothing but spam text into a window in a separate thread it'd be a multi-threaded game even if literally all of the actual work was done on a single core because the game would fall under your classification of single core utilization for one part of the game alone.
The main part of the game is singlethreaded, the meat and potatoes, the 99%, etc.

It doesn't matter as the bit that is difficult to run and would require use of 2+ threads to run well is already ran on EAs servers and most likely multi-threaded there anyway.
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post #222 of 257
It's funny to read all the outraged comments from people who don't really know what they're talking about. There are legitimate reasons why they may have decided to make the main simulation a single thread. Even if you assume that people are playing on 8 core machines, a perfectly ideal multi-thread solution would only net you an 8x speedup. Since the simulation is one thread, but other things are not, this is overly conservative (other things are already using other cpu cores). Furthermore, threading has an overhead, things don's scale perfectly as threads have to wait on each other or redo work (depending on exactly what synchronization constructs are used)

It then becomes a trade off, is your simulation actually algorithmicly parallelizable enough to offset the factors above? If it is, you may get a 2-4x increase (on our hypothetical 8 core machine) over having a single main thread. If the simulation isn't very parallel by default, you may actually run slower or at roughly the same speed as if you aggressively split the simulation into multiple threads. In this case, would the added development complexity make sense? No.

I'm not saying the above is the case, it's merely an example of a very plausible potential explanation. Since we don't have all the info.... it seems silly to be outraged. If the game sucks... be mad, if the game runs poorly... be mad, but don't be upset over a behind the scenes development detail.
Edited by Varjo - 2/12/13 at 11:22am
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post #223 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varjo View Post

It's funny to read all the outraged comments from people who don't really know what they're talking about. There are legitimate reasons why they may have decided to make the main simulation a single thread. Even if you assume that people are playing on 8 core machines, a perfectly ideal multi-thread solution would only net you an 8x speedup. Since the simulation is one thread, but other things are not, this is overly conservative (other things are already using other cpu cores). Furthermore, threading has an overhead, things don's scale perfectly as threads have to wait on each other or redo work (depending on exactly what synchronization constructs are used)

It then becomes a trade off, is your simulation actually algorithmicly parallelizable enough to offset the factors above? If it is, you may get a 2-4x increase (on our hypothetical 8 core machine) over having a single main thread. If the simulation isn't very parallel by default, you may actually run slower or at roughly the same speed as if you aggressively split the simulation into multiple threads. In this case, would the added development complexity make sense? No.

I'm not saying the above is the case, it's merely an example of a very plausible potential explanation. Since we don't have all the info.... it seems silly to be outraged. If the game sucks... be mad, if the game runs poorly... be mad, but don't be upset over a behind the scenes development detail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Most people don't, however just like the argument that Linux is a kernel and not an OS we both know exactly what he's talking about.
And he's right, most of the stuff that SC does on the extra threads are extremely easy to do.
But if it really does make the difference between buying it or not buying it, then that person really is an idiot...If it runs well it runs well.
Let me simplify it: Games have to do a lot, you've got the main game logic, (eg AI, maths for health/resources/whatever, etc) the audio, the parts that pass the GPU its instructions and a handful of others, the main game logic uses 1 thread while the rest can all run on separate threads despite not really needing to.

However, as has been said multiple times, the hardest bit to run in SC4 is now done on EAs servers in the cloud, so the single-threadedness of this game is moot...You likely could max it out on a single core Pentium 4 if it was overclocked and had a semi-decent GPU.
By that logic, if I made a game run a loop that literally did nothing but spam text into a window in a separate thread it'd be a multi-threaded game even if literally all of the actual work was done on a single core because the game would fall under your classification of single core utilization for one part of the game alone.
The main part of the game is singlethreaded, the meat and potatoes, the 99%, etc.

It doesn't matter as the bit that is difficult to run and would require use of 2+ threads to run well is already ran on EAs servers and most likely multi-threaded there anyway.

"Creating a connected experience has always been a goal for SimCity, and this design decision has driven our development process for the game. This is easily the most ambitious game in the franchise and we’ve taken great care to make sure that every line of code embodies the spirit of the series. To do this, we knew we had to make sure we put our heart and souls into the simulation and the team created the most powerful simulation engine in its history, the GlassBox Engine. GlassBox is the engine that drives the entire game -- the buildings, the economics, trading, and also the overall simulation that can track data for up to 100,000 individual Sims inside each city. There is a massive amount of computing that goes into all of this, and GlassBox works by attributing portions of the computing to EA servers (the cloud) and some on the player's local computer."

It runs bad out of the box, it's built around running bad. It's pretty much devoted to running bad.
Edited by Huzzbutt - 2/12/13 at 11:42am
 
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post #224 of 257
Can you expand on what you mean when you say "bad"?

In what context?
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post #225 of 257
I'm sorry, but making up for piss poor coding with the really lame esczue that you will use other cores other cores for sound and freaking rendering is a typical EA marketing cover if ever heard one. If EA didn't make their damn worthless baby called Origin to supposedly offset some of the data to its stupid cloud so they could maintain an iron fist control of peoples software that they legally freaking purchased, is damn near communistic in nature.

Hell, I don't see how it would be thermally good for a modern CPU to have one core pegged most of the time while the other cores sit there with their thumbs up their transistor butts. But hey, cover up for EA's piss poor coding all you want because thats just a better "way" of programming in a perfect world. Unless your smoking some REAL good stuff, there is nothing remotely perfect in this world and EA just continues to make it worse for us dying breed of PC gamers who already have limited options with consoles taking the market share of developers time and money because thats the real gold mine nowadays other then handheld gaming on smartphones
Edited by Binary Ecyrb - 2/12/13 at 12:20pm
post #226 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Can you expand on what you mean when you say "bad"?

In what context?

The game engine is made around a concept of cloudcomputing. By not taking advantage of clientside processing power, not because it can't be done. It's like removing four spark plugs from a v8 then have it towed with the engine running.
 
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post #227 of 257
I'm not getting this game. The initial fun will wear off quickly due to the limitations they forced on us. It would have been awesome if they allowed you to build a true metropolis.
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post #228 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huzzbutt View Post

The game engine is made around a concept of cloudcomputing. By not taking advantage of clientside processing power, not because it can't be done.

None of that is synonymous with the game either being made to run badly or actually running badly.

Especially when it didn't run badly during beta.
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post #229 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

None of that is synonymous with the game either being made to run badly or actually running badly.

Especially when it didn't run badly during beta.

Of course it didn't because the unneccessary choking was alleviated by the unneccessary cloud computing.
It's half the sparkplugs and a towing cable.
 
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post #230 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Binary Ecyrb View Post

I'm sorry, but making up for piss poor coding with the really lame esczue that you will use other cores other cores for sound and freaking rendering is a typical EA marketing cover if ever heard one. If EA didn't make their damn worthless baby called Origin to supposedly offset some of the data to its stupid cloud so they could maintain an iron fist control of peoples software that they legally freaking purchased, is damn near communistic in nature.

That's quite the hilarious/hypocritical statement regarding digital media rights, given that you're Steam user.

Although that could easily explain how a person supposedly opposed to something could have been more than happy to accept the exact same business model/game coding just a day before as long as there wasn't a clickbait headline made for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Binary Ecyrb View Post

Hell, I don't see how it would be thermally good for a modern CPU to have one core pegged most of the time while the other cores sit there with their thumbs up their transistor butts. But hey, cover up for EA's piss poor coding all you want because thats just a better "way" of programming in a perfect world. Unless your smoking some REAL good stuff, there is nothing remotely perfect in this world and EA just continues to make it worse for us dying breed of PC gamers who already have limited options with consoles taking the market share of developers time and money because thats the real gold mine nowadays other then handheld gaming on smartphones

If they've designed the game to not need more than the prescribed number of cores due to work offloading to the cloud, its actually efficient coding based on the actual design of the game.

I also wonder why you can't type wt"eff" without an infraction, but it seems people can type the word piss all they want. Is piss not a curse word in America or something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Binary Ecyrb View Post

Your missing the point, AGAIN.

Not at all.

Coding a game to have parts in the cloud is not synonymous with a game running badly.

Not fully utilizing local resources is not synonymous with games running badly.

It's literally that simple.


Unless you'd like to argue that CS:GO is "designed to run badly" since it doesn't tax all our DX11 GPUs.

Or maybe minecraft is designed to run badly because of all the low res textures.

Or maybe the vast majority of other strategy games (and others) that are coded in a similar fashion to SimCity are also designed to run badly.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 2/12/13 at 12:47pm
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