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post #31 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophaq View Post

Huh, really? I didn't know that. mellowsmiley.gif

It makes sense though, as I do have my power settings custom on high performance. Is having power settings on high performance a bad thing?

Not really. It's not even clear whether leaving it on High Performance actually keeps it from downclocking or if it is just a reporting issue with CPU-Z. It looks like just a reporting issue though. Either way, should be no problem in High Performance.
post #32 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Not really. It's not even clear whether leaving it on High Performance actually keeps it from downclocking or if it is just a reporting issue with CPU-Z. It looks like just a reporting issue though. Either way, should be no problem in High Performance.
Mmk.

Well, you were right about the power options thing. The CPU went down to 1.6Ghz right after I went to balanced. I also see no difference (at the moment) between the two settings. Although, another strange thing I noticed was that even though the CPU was running at 3.7 to 3.8Ghz on high performance, the voltages were the same between power saver and high performance. The only thing that changed was the clock speed.

Is there still a difference in power consumption that I am not aware of when switching between the two settings? Or, because CPU-Z says that the voltage is the same between the two, high performance would be better than balanced because it "might" run faster since its running at a higher clock constantly at the same voltage?

Such small things to wonder about... XD
post #33 of 72
I think the clock speed is the same both ways also, even though CPU-Z shows them as different. I checked the wall power draw yesterday and they were both the same.
post #34 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

I think the clock speed is the same both ways also, even though CPU-Z shows them as different. I checked the wall power draw yesterday and they were both the same.
So really, CPU-Z's reading is kind of false when the power is on 'high performance'? After all, it doesn't make much sense for a CPU to stay at around 0.700 to 0.800V at 3.7 to 3.8Ghz. XD

I read on another forum that the two power settings don't make much of a difference, and like what Windows says, 'balanced' is recommended for whatever reason. Anyway, since I'm not seeing a difference between the two (and to be on the safe side), I'll just keep power on balanced (even though the computer was perfectly fine on high performance). thumb.gif
Edited by Ophaq - 2/15/13 at 11:21pm
post #35 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophaq View Post

So really, CPU-Z's reading is kind of false when the power is on 'high performance'?

Sounds that way. Unclewebb, the author of RealTemp, says CPU-Z uses a different way of determining the frequency that isn't as accurate (since it is a validation tool and not a monitoring tool). Here's his post about it:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1219588/updated-part-ii-offset-mode-overclocking-starter-guide-and-thread/160_20#post_19302996
post #36 of 72

Unclewebb is also teaching me that the best setting to use is a fixed core voltage if you want C3 and C6 enabled, and you should also use the High Performance power profile in Windows:

 

 

Quote:
If you are using C6, you don't need to use an offset voltage. The reason for this is that C6 automatically drops the core voltage down close to zero. An offset voltage only interferes with what the CPU is already designed to do. The reason everyone is using offset voltage is either because they are not using C6 or don't understand what their CPU is really doing when lightly loaded.

Instead of "Race to Sleep" maybe "Race to get into the almost zero power C6 State" would be a more accurate term.

Using C6 will always consume less power than any setup that does not include C6.

Offset voltages are for when you reduce the multiplier, usually down to 16, but doing this does not save as much power as using C6 alone does.

 

 

Quote:
I think using an offset voltage is the biggest reason for instability. Running a CPU at 1600 MHz with a reduced voltage is the worst thing you can do. This setting increases power consumption and decreases performance compared to using C6. I'm Not sure why enthusiasts recommend running at 1600 MHz when idle or lightly loaded.

When using C6, there is no reason to run your CPU slow. Intel has put a lot of thought into their CPUs and especially into the various C States so their CPUs can quickly change states with zero lag or loss of stability. Even when significantly overclocked, a CPU should still be stable when C6 is enabled.

Every time I read about instability, people are usually using offset voltages and sometimes C3 / C6. The first thing that gets turned off is C3 / C6 because everyone else in the forums is doing the same thing. It would be interesting if more people would go with a fixed voltage and leave C3 / C6 on.

 

I would like to add that I think another reason people are disabling things like this is due to the old days where we didn't have a choice if we wanted to overclock.  We had to disable all of the power-saving options.  Back then, the only ones available were usually C1E and Enhanced Intel SpeedStep Technology.

 

Quote:
Here's a comparison. Suppose you have a calculation that takes one of your CPU's cores 10 seconds to compute at 4000 MHz. This same task is going to take 2.5 times longer if you are running your CPU at 1600 MHz so at that speed it will take 25 seconds.

At 1600 MHz, your CPU spent 25 seconds at perhaps 0.80 volts (if you can get your CPU down that low so your average voltage is 0.80 volts).

At 4000 MHz, your CPU was at 1.10 volts for 10 seconds and it was at virtually zero volts in C6 for the other 15 seconds. Your average voltage is:

( 1.10 v X 10 seconds ) / 25 seconds = 0.44 volts

Quite a difference. Every time you allow your CPU to "save" power by running it at 1600 MHz, you are doing the exact opposite when C6 is enabled. You need to avoid 1600 MHz and you need to avoid decreasing the core voltage. Same goes for the Windows Balanced profile. It might have been useful a few years ago before Intel's Core i CPU existed but on modern Intel CPUs, the Balanced mode doesn't accomplish anything if C6 is enabled.

The above holds true whether your CPU is at 1600 MHz for a second or a millisecond or anything in between. Slowing a CPU down kills its efficiency. A fast CPU is an efficient CPU and it allows it to spend more time in the low power C6 state when it doesn't have anything to do. When gaming - or doing any task where your CPU is not fully loaded - when C6 is enabled, cores will automatically be going into C6, running cooler and saving power without any negative side effects.
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post #37 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

Unclewebb is also teaching me that the best setting to use is a fixed core voltage if you want C3 and C6 enabled, and you should also use the High Performance power profile in Windows:

Quote:
If you are using C6, you don't need to use an offset voltage. The reason for this is that C6 automatically drops the core voltage down close to zero. An offset voltage only interferes with what the CPU is already designed to do. The reason everyone is using offset voltage is either because they are not using C6 or don't understand what their CPU is really doing when lightly loaded.


Instead of "Race to Sleep" maybe "Race to get into the almost zero power C6 State" would be a more accurate term.


Using C6 will always consume less power than any setup that does not include C6.


Offset voltages are for when you reduce the multiplier, usually down to 16, but doing this does not save as much power as using C6 alone does.

Quote:
I think using an offset voltage is the biggest reason for instability. Running a CPU at 1600 MHz with a reduced voltage is the worst thing you can do. This setting increases power consumption and decreases performance compared to using C6. I'm Not sure why enthusiasts recommend running at 1600 MHz when idle or lightly loaded.


When using C6, there is no reason to run your CPU slow. Intel has put a lot of thought into their CPUs and especially into the various C States so their CPUs can quickly change states with zero lag or loss of stability. Even when significantly overclocked, a CPU should still be stable when C6 is enabled.


Every time I read about instability, people are usually using offset voltages and sometimes C3 / C6. The first thing that gets turned off is C3 / C6 because everyone else in the forums is doing the same thing. It would be interesting if more people would go with a fixed voltage and leave C3 / C6 on.

I would like to add that I think another reason people are disabling things like this is due to the old days where we didn't have a choice if we wanted to overclock.  We had to disable all of the power-saving options.  Back then, the only ones available were usually C1E and Enhanced Intel SpeedStep Technology.
Quote:
Here's a comparison. Suppose you have a calculation that takes one of your CPU's cores 10 seconds to compute at 4000 MHz. This same task is going to take 2.5 times longer if you are running your CPU at 1600 MHz so at that speed it will take 25 seconds.


At 1600 MHz, your CPU spent 25 seconds at perhaps 0.80 volts (if you can get your CPU down that low so your average voltage is 0.80 volts).


At 4000 MHz, your CPU was at 1.10 volts for 10 seconds and it was at virtually zero volts in C6 for the other 15 seconds. Your average voltage is:


( 1.10 v X 10 seconds ) / 25 seconds = 0.44 volts


Quite a difference. Every time you allow your CPU to "save" power by running it at 1600 MHz, you are doing the exact opposite when C6 is enabled. You need to avoid 1600 MHz and you need to avoid decreasing the core voltage. Same goes for the Windows Balanced profile. It might have been useful a few years ago before Intel's Core i CPU existed but on modern Intel CPUs, the Balanced mode doesn't accomplish anything if C6 is enabled.


The above holds true whether your CPU is at 1600 MHz for a second or a millisecond or anything in between. Slowing a CPU down kills its efficiency. A fast CPU is an efficient CPU and it allows it to spend more time in the low power C6 state when it doesn't have anything to do. When gaming - or doing any task where your CPU is not fully loaded - when C6 is enabled, cores will automatically be going into C6, running cooler and saving power without any negative side effects.

So downclocking or saving power isn't really a good idea for games?
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post #38 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashFir View Post


So downclocking or saving power isn't really a good idea for games?

 

Did you really read all of that in under a minute?  :)

 

If you have C6 enabled, then the answer is yes.  If it's disabled, then I'm assuming the answer is no.

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post #39 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashFir View Post

So downclocking or saving power isn't really a good idea for games?

Did you really read all of that in under a minute?  smile.gif

If you have C6 enabled, then the answer is yes.  If it's disabled, then I'm assuming the answer is no.

you caught me biggrin.gif
Skimmed. So after reading more it seems running in a lower power state @ a higher frequency results in desirable behavior.

Doing BOTH results in undesirable performance loss yes?
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post #40 of 72
He seems to imply that running the chip at 1600 MHz is somehow preventing the chip from going into C6, and that running an offset is also preventing the chip from going to C6. But I am doing both of those things and my chip is in C3 and C6 a lot. So I'm not sure his argument hangs together. It applies for guys who disable C3 and C6, I guess, but that's really only recommended when someone has a problem in offset mode (in which case it may be better to run a fixed voltage with C3/C6 enabled). But there is no reason why you shouldn't run offset, power saving enabled, and C3/C6 enabled all at the same time, as long as it works.

For example:
Quote:
When using C6, there is no reason to run your CPU slow. Intel has put a lot of thought into their CPUs and especially into the various C States so their CPUs can quickly change states with zero lag or loss of stability. Even when significantly overclocked, a CPU should still be stable when C6 is enabled.

If Intel put so much thought into it, then why do they make the chip idle down to 1600? The stock out of the box behavior is basically offset/all power saving enabled/C3C6 enabled. Which is kind of what he is saying don't do.

I think he needs to be clearer that what he is advocating is leaving C3/C6 enabled even if it means running a fixed voltage instead of offset (in case of problems). I don't see what the multiplier has to do with anything.

This part also makes no sense:
Quote:
Here's a comparison. Suppose you have a calculation that takes one of your CPU's cores 10 seconds to compute at 4000 MHz. This same task is going to take 2.5 times longer if you are running your CPU at 1600 MHz so at that speed it will take 25 seconds.


At 1600 MHz, your CPU spent 25 seconds at perhaps 0.80 volts (if you can get your CPU down that low so your average voltage is 0.80 volts).


At 4000 MHz, your CPU was at 1.10 volts for 10 seconds and it was at virtually zero volts in C6 for the other 15 seconds. Your average voltage is:


( 1.10 v X 10 seconds ) / 25 seconds = 0.44 volts


Quite a difference. Every time you allow your CPU to "save" power by running it at 1600 MHz, you are doing the exact opposite when C6 is enabled. You need to avoid 1600 MHz and you need to avoid decreasing the core voltage.

No one is forcing their chip to run at 1600 all the time, that's crazy. The chip will always speed up to do the calculation, no matter what the idle behavior is.
Edited by Forceman - 2/16/13 at 12:21am
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