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[TE] AMD denies graphics card rumours: We will have cards out this year - Page 7

post #61 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

Seriously, why do you think they got different results? Ambient temperatures maybe... rolleyes.gif

Anyway, you are helping me prove my point. Lets use your example: 79C for 7970 on stock coolers.
AMD make a Titan competitor: 70% bigger die to match it.

Temperatures will SKYROOF with a normal stock cooler. Power consumption will be accommodable but pretty big.

I don`t see that happening. At all. Which is why AMD have gone out earlier and said that their 7000 series will do just fine for now. Its a limit for both architectures. AMD is a lot closer than Nvidia regarding that.

Just wait and you`ll see.

I know it's against OCN rules to call someone a troll, but I cannot honestly believe that you seriously believe what you are saying. At a certain ambient temperature, the 7970 runs 4C hotter than the 580, and at another ambient temperature the 580 runs 9C hotter? A far more reasonable explanation would be variations in workload, or perhaps different samples having thermal paste applications of different quality, or better yet the coolers being of different mass... but no, that would destroy your "argument".

You are completely ignoring the part of my post where I refuted your claim that they would require a 70% larger die. Think about it... the Titan is supposed to have ~85% the gaming performance of the 690. 7970 GHz Edition currently provides ~60-65% the performance of the GTX 690. ~40% more performance = 70% larger die? Not even GK104 -> GK110 scales so horribly in games with more resources despite GK110 containing tons of circuitry dedicated to compute features that are absent in GK104 (and, for the most part, are present in Tahiti, and presumably wouldn't change in this mythical monolith that AMD would never ever build).
Edited by Usario - 2/14/13 at 2:55pm
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post #62 of 161

Cloud is right, although before temperatures play a bottlenecking role there is the clock skew and latency issues. Last time AMD tried to design a 400mm2+ GPU they failed hard (see R600). nVidia failed with Fermi as well but has more experience with large GPUs than AMD. R600 wasn't even as big as Fermi and already ended in a huge fiasco. AMD's answer was build' em small. Fortunately they seem to resign from that stance.

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post #63 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

I know it's against OCN rules to call someone a troll, but I cannot honestly believe that you seriously believe what you are saying. At a certain ambient temperature, the 7970 runs 4C hotter than the 580, and at another ambient temperature the 580 runs 9C hotter? A far more reasonable explanation would be variations in workload... but no, that would destroy your "argument".
OMG, are you serious? Do you really think Anandtech tested all of those GPUs again? Go look at the game benchmarks, do you find all the GPUs from the temperature readings there?
Now breath out, breath in, and think for a moment again.

No you couldn`t find all of them? Maybe he tested some temps earlier and game benchmarks later? Example: GTX 580 was tested @ 27C earlier. 7970 was tested @ 23C. That would result in the different results don`t you think?

Atleast try to keep up if you are gonna come through to me
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

Cloud is right, although before temperatures play a bottlenecking role there is the clock skew and latency issues. Last time AMD tried to design a 400mm2+ GPU they failed hard (see R600). nVidia failed with Fermi as well but has more experience with large GPUs than AMD. R600 wasn't even as big as Fermi and already ended in a huge fiasco. AMD's answer was build' em small. Fortunately they seem to resign from that stance.

Thank you. Yes, I can`t see this enormous GPU from AMD happening. The only possibility is architectural gains with GCN: That AMD don`t have to add as many cores as if they were GCN 1.0. But even there it is limit on how much they can squeeze out. We will see smile.gif
Edited by Cloudfire777 - 2/14/13 at 3:04pm
post #64 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

Cloud is right, although before temperatures play a bottlenecking role there is the clock skew and latency issues. Last time AMD tried to design a 400mm2+ GPU they failed hard (see R600). nVidia failed with Fermi as well but has more experience with large GPUs than AMD. R600 wasn't even as big as Fermi and already ended in a huge fiasco. AMD's answer was build' em small. Fortunately they seem to resign from that stance.

R600 really wasn't that big... it's only 31mm^2 larger than Cayman and its problems went far beyond that.

AMD's experience in the field is about as relevant to this argument as is the likelihood of AMD actually building such a large card (answer: next to none).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

OMG, are you serious? Do you really think Anandtech tested all of those GPUs again? Go look at the game benchmarks, do you find all the GPUs from the temperature readings there?
Now breath out, breath in, and think for a moment again.

No you couldn`t find all of them? Maybe he tested some temps earlier and game benchmarks later? Example: GTX 580 was tested @ 27C earlier. 7970 was tested @ 23C. That would result in the different results don`t you think?

Atleast try to keep up if you are gonna come through to me

Yes, a respected reviewer such as Anandtech would test the cards' heat output in radically different temperatures rather than in an air conditioned room. That makes perfect sense. But on top of that, if this is true, there is absolutely zero chance of the same thing skewing Guru3D's results.

And you continue to ignore everything else I said.

Get a grip.
Edited by Usario - 2/14/13 at 3:10pm
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post #65 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

Cloud is right, although before temperatures play a bottlenecking role there is the clock skew and latency issues.

Latency issues have been proven in a while as a software issue and not hardware. Driver 13.2 fixed latency issues in most games.
Too bad people who make those absurd claims didn't even own or tried a 7000 series card.
In Skyrim for example my GTX 470/ previous 670 suffer more from latency issues when compared to my 7950 with 13.2 drivers.
The game on Fermi @ 30 fps is horrible, and Kepler is not that much better.
Edited by HeadlessKnight - 2/14/13 at 3:17pm
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post #66 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlocke View Post

With titan looking like it will destroy anything on the market, there's no way the rumors were true. NVIDIA would have a completely dominated market for high end gamers if titan was the only card out this year. There's no way AMD would want that for an extended period of time.

(Edited because people can't seem to grasp what I meant.)
They already have a competitor for Titan; Tahiti. Dual Tahiti cards will still offer enough VRAM for the forseeable future, and presumably far better performance than the Titan. It's like when people were buying single 580's for the price of two 6950's, back when I bought this system.

Sure, single card solutions are nice, but at the premium that NVIDIA usually prices their big dies, they can't do anything even resembling "dominating the market." Titan won't even be able to compete with the 680 or 690. If the projected performance:price are correct, and they should be, then Titan will only make sense if you're getting more than one of them. How much competition is in the $1800+ GPU market these days?

I'm sorry, but I'm sick of hearing people talk about how NVIDIA will "dominate the market" with this card. It's going to be a monster of a GPU, yes, but it will likely be beaten by a 40% margin by cheaper dual GPU setups. That is not the definition of "dominating the market for high end gamers." High end does not begin at $1800+.
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post #67 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

Yes, a respected reviewer such as Anandtech would test the cards' heat output in radically different temperatures rather than in an air conditioned room. That makes perfect sense. But on top of that, if this is true, there is absolutely zero chance of the same thing skewing Guru3D's results.

And you continue to ignore everything else I said.

Get a grip.

#1: I already showed you that he tested them at different times. And ambient temperatures play a big role

#2: "there is absolutely zero chance of the same thing skewing Guru3D's results"
Of course it could skew the results there too, but you don`t know which direction. Could be 580s advantage, could be 7970 advantage. But I didn`t accuse your graph of being wrong either, you started by saying mine was wrong. Thats the whole problem with looking at different reviews: Different maps, different settings, different temps, different drivers. Which pretty much everone should know by now, but yet people post "but this said this" "no this said that" all the time.

I also countered your argument, using your 79C as too much but you still haven`t replied. But of course, I can`t take away your dream of a sun inside your computer. Just make sure you have some automatic liquid nitrogen system ready for that insane hot and unstable TitanSlayer thumb.gif
post #68 of 161
In my opinion AMD don't even need to slay or match the Titan if the latter is priced $1000.
Too few people are going to get a card that pricey. But they win if they countered the GTX 780 @ $500.
The Titan won't be a real threat to AMD unless it is priced like $550-500, but at $900-1300 with limited quantity it is not possible.
Edited by HeadlessKnight - 2/14/13 at 3:23pm
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post #69 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

#1: I already showed you that he tested them at different times. And ambient temperatures play a big role

#2: "there is absolutely zero chance of the same thing skewing Guru3D's results"
Of course it could skew the results there too, but you don`t know which direction. Could be 580s advantage, could be 7970 advantage. But I didn`t accuse your graph of being wrong either, you started by saying mine was wrong. Thats the whole problem with looking at different reviews: Different maps, different settings, different temps, different drivers. Which pretty much everone should know by now, but yet people post "but this said this" "no this said that" all the time.

I also countered your argument, using your 79C as too much but you still haven`t replied. But of course, I can`t take away your dream of a sun inside your computer. Just make sure you have some automatic liquid nitrogen system ready for that insane hot and unstable TitanSlayer thumb.gif

So what? Wouldn't any sane man, let alone someone who runs one of the most popular tech review sites on the internet, bother to run thermal tests at a similar ambient temperature?

I never said your graph was wrong. I said that I have a graph that states otherwise. Mine was cherry-picked as was yours. My point by posting it was showing that you don't have a point.

You didn't counter my argument stating that AMD wouldn't need as drastic of a die size difference because GK104 lacks compute features.

I'm surprised that someone who supports NVIDIA like you do is making hyperbolic jokes about power-hungry graphics cards.
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post #70 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadlessKnight View Post


Latency issues have been proven in a while as a software issue and not hardware. Driver 13.2 fixed latency issues in most games.
Too bad people who make those absurd claims didn't even own or tried a 7000 series card.
In Skyrim for example my GTX 470/ previous 670 suffer more from latency issues when compared to my 7950 with 13.2 drivers.
The game on Fermi @ 30 fps is horrible.

 

Huh, I'm talking about latency as in the capacitive property of the interconnect. Take a chill pill man...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post


R600 really wasn't that big... it's only 31mm^2 larger than Cayman and its problems went far beyond that.

AMD's experience in the field is about as relevant to this argument as is the likelihood of AMD actually building such a large card (answer: next to none).
Yes, a respected reviewer such as Anandtech would test the cards' heat output in radically different temperatures rather than in an air conditioned room. That makes perfect sense. But on top of that, if this is true, there is absolutely zero chance of the same thing skewing Guru3D's results.

And you continue to ignore everything else I said.

Get a grip.

 

Cayman was a revision on Cypress on the same process, not the same thing. AMD actually planned a big GPU for Cypress but chose a small GPU to avoid a new R600 and to allow a dual GPU as top dog. The problem isn't that it was that big, rather that it was too much resource extensive. Fermi is one of the most complex parallel processors made given its highly OoO oriented design. AMD never did this, so yes it is relevant. You even pointed out the correlation yourself... AMD probably won't build a die over 500mm2, which was Cloud's point you argued aside from the fact they need it or not (and yes they need a die in the ballpark of 6,5 à 7,5 bilion transistors to do that). Titan will most likely suck in FP64 because of the artificial limitations as well. And let's be honest, how many consumer GPGPU applications need 64 bit precision?

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