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[TE] AMD denies graphics card rumours: We will have cards out this year - Page 8

post #71 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

You are completely ignoring the part of my post where I refuted your claim that they would require a 70% larger die. Think about it... the Titan is supposed to have ~85% the gaming performance of the 690. 7970 GHz Edition currently provides ~60-65% the performance of the GTX 690. ~40% more performance = 70% larger die? Not even GK104 -> GK110 scales so horribly in games with more resources despite GK110 containing tons of circuitry dedicated to compute features that are absent in GK104 (and, for the most part, are present in Tahiti, and presumably wouldn't change in this mythical monolith that AMD would never ever build).

You can`t compare GK104 and 7970GHz and say GK110 and TitanSlayer will be this and that.
Bandwidth is one of the reasons. GK110 might have better bandwidth per cuda core than GK104 had. We don`t know how it scale.

But even if we did and we follow your example, if Titan is indeed 65% faster than GTX 680. That would leave Titan about 60%ish faster than 7970Ghz by using this graph .


Lets say performance and TDP is linear. 60% increase of 7970GHz TDP will leave TitanSlayer at 400W @ one spot. Thats even more than the 375W dual core S10000 cooled by 3 fans mentioned earlier in this thread. tongue.gif

If power consumption also was linear, the maximum power consumption would be 440W for this card.You can argue til the cows come home: Your TitanSlayer ain`t happening no matter how you look at it. I highly doubt it
Edited by Cloudfire777 - 2/14/13 at 3:32pm
post #72 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

#1: I already showed you that he tested them at different times. And ambient temperatures play a big role

Is the "test bench" actually outside on a bench?
post #73 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

You are completely ignoring the part of my post where I refuted your claim that they would require a 70% larger die. Think about it... the Titan is supposed to have ~85% the gaming performance of the 690. 7970 GHz Edition currently provides ~60-65% the performance of the GTX 690. ~40% more performance = 70% larger die? Not even GK104 -> GK110 scales so horribly in games with more resources despite GK110 containing tons of circuitry dedicated to compute features that are absent in GK104 (and, for the most part, are present in Tahiti, and presumably wouldn't change in this mythical monolith that AMD would never ever build).

You can`t compare GK104 and 7970GHz and say GK110 and TitanSlayer will be this and that.
Bandwidth is one of the reasons. GK110 might have better bandwidth per cuda core than GK104 had. We don`t know how it scale.

But even if we did, if Titan is indeed 65% faster than GTX 680. That would leave Titan about 60%ish faster than 7970Ghz by using this graph .


Lets say performance and TDP is linear. 60% increase of 7970GHz TDP will leave it at 400W. Thats even more than the dual core S10000 cooled by 3 fans mentioned earlier in this thread. tongue.gif
If power consumption also was linear, the maximum power consumption @ 440W for this card.
You can argue til the cows come home: Your TitanSlayer ain`t happening no matter how you look at it. I highly doubt it

That would also leave the titan about 10% faster than the 690 according to that graph, which I highly doubt.

GK110 has nearly twice as many CUDA cores as GK104 yet only has 50% more memory bandwidth. On top of that it has less ROPs/L2/all that stuff per SMX than GK104... which only means that per-core efficiency will decrease.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 
Cayman was a revision on Cypress on the same process, not the same thing. AMD actually planned a big GPU for Cypress but chose a small GPU to avoid a new R600 and to allow a dual GPU as top dog. The problem isn't that it was that big, rather that it was too much resource extensive. Fermi is one of the most complex parallel processors made given its highly OoO oriented design. AMD never did this, so yes it is relevant. You even pointed out the correlation yourself... AMD probably won't build a die over 500mm2, which was Cloud's point you argued aside from the fact they need it or not (and yes they need a die in the ballpark of 6,5 à 7,5 bilion transistors to do that). Titan will most likely suck in FP64 because of the artificial limitations as well. And let's be honest, how many consumer GPGPU applications need 64 bit precision?

Cayman wasn't exactly a revision of Cypress; it moved to VLIW4 and added SIMDs. I'd say the 8970 is more a revision of the 7970 than the 6970 is a revision of the 5870.

It isn't relevant because we're not talking about the feasibility from an architectural standpoint and I don't think anyone is saying that there's any chance of this ever happening. Cloudfire said that AMD would need a 630mm^2 die to counter the Titan, because their 365mm^2 die is equal to NVIDIA's 294mm^2 one (though in reality Tahiti is ~5-10% faster at stock but I won't even bother getting into that argument). All I was trying to say is that AMD isn't actually behind in performance/mm^2, or at least not to the extent that Cloudfire claims, when you consider compute elements of the chip.
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post #74 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foolsmasher View Post

Is the "test bench" actually outside on a bench?

In Anandtech`s case: yes.

You find his GTX 580 temps a long way back which he have been reusing for god knows how long. Here is an earlier review with 580 temps that match the 680 review
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5625/amd-radeon-hd-7870-ghz-edition-radeon-hd-7850-review-rounding-out-southern-islands/17

Might have been hotter that day than when he tested the 680.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

That would also leave the titan about 10% faster than the 690 according to that graph, which I highly doubt.

GK110 has nearly twice as many CUDA cores as GK104 yet only has 50% more memory bandwidth. On top of that it has less ROPs/L2/all that stuff per SMX than GK104... which only means that per-core efficiency will decrease.

Say 45% faster than 680 then. That would leave TDP of 7970 of 370W. Still way too hot and right on the S10000.

I`m finished with this discussion. TitanSlayer aint happening. Good day thumb.gif
Edited by Cloudfire777 - 2/14/13 at 3:46pm
post #75 of 161
GOOD! Then the only thing i have to look forward to next year is Steamroller and the next gen amd boards. Nice. Can't wait for my 8970.
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post #76 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

Say 45% faster than 680 then. That would leave TDP of 7970 of 370W. Still way too hot and right on the S10000.

Hmm... so by your logic, if GK110 is 45% faster than the GTX 680, it should have a 280W TDP. And that's an NVIDIA TDP... the 480 had a 250W TDP.
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post #77 of 161
Good
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post #78 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

Hmm... so by your logic, if GK110 is 45% faster than the GTX 680, it should have a 280W TDP. And that's an NVIDIA TDP... the 480 had a 250W TDP.
Quote:
The Tesla K20c is rated 225W, which it hits only when running Linpack. A single-precision only load results in a power draw of ca 120W. Since the Geforce Titan will almost certainly have the DP units disabled, and assuming the silicon is stable at 1GHz, a 50-60% increment on the GK114/GTX680 is entirely plausible.
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/1/10/38927eab-9eeb-4943-90ea-f3f96df0f8b2.jpg
Edited by Cloudfire777 - 2/14/13 at 4:07pm
post #79 of 161
@Usario

Cayman is built on R600 arch and a revision on Cypress. Even if HD8k is more of a revision than HD6k, it still remains a revision...

The problem with performance/mm2 is that it's a variable that changes per application and clock speed. If you clock your ASIC aggressive while keeping die size small, this metric goes up. If you take simple integer crunching like mining, AMD wins. If you take complex OpenMM calculations, nVidia wins.

This metric is introduced by AMD fans in Cypress time to make a non-existent point. You don't hear people talking about how SB-E is worse perf/area vs IB, because a CPU is a general purpose microprocessor. Now that the GPU becomes more complex, this metric needs to die. Just compare on applications not on some general mean that does not exist. Or you should restrict your PoV on gaming, since that is the main target of consumer GPUs (not the chips itself).
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post #80 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

Hmm... so by your logic, if GK110 is 45% faster than the GTX 680, it should have a 280W TDP. And that's an NVIDIA TDP... the 480 had a 250W TDP.
Quote:
The Tesla K20c is rated 225W, which it hits only when running Linpack. A single-precision only load results in a power draw of ca 120W. Since the Geforce Titan will almost certainly have the DP units disabled, and assuming the silicon is stable at 1GHz, a 50-60% increment on the GK114/GTX680 is entirely plausible.
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/1/10/38927eab-9eeb-4943-90ea-f3f96df0f8b2.jpg

So you're saying that the Titan will be 25% hotter than the 480. Congratulations? I doubt that'll turn out to be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

@Usario

Cayman is built on R600 arch and a revision on Cypress. Even if HD8k is more of a revision than HD6k, it still remains a revision...

The problem with performance/mm2 is that it's a variable that changes per application and clock speed. If you clock your ASIC aggressive while keeping die size small, this metric goes up. If you take simple integer crunching like mining, AMD wins. If you take complex OpenMM calculations, nVidia wins.

This metric is introduced by AMD fans in Cypress time to make a non-existent point. You don't hear people talking about how SB-E is worse perf/area vs IB, because a CPU is a general purpose microprocessor. Now that the GPU becomes more complex, this metric needs to die. Just compare on applications not on some general mean that does not exist. Or you should restrict your PoV on gaming, since that is the main target of consumer GPUs (not the chips itself).

Basically what I got from what you said is that our argument is stupid and pointless. I agree.
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AMD FX-8320 @ 4.73GHz Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Radeon HD 7950 @ 1200/1800 8GB Samsung 30nm DDR3 @ 2000MHz 11-11-11-28-1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
128GB Crucial M4 1TB Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 2TB Seagate Barracuda ST 7200 RPM who cares 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XSPC Raystorm XSPC Razor HD 7970 XSPC EX240 Swiftech MCP50X 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Black Ice GT Stealth 240 2x XSPC Xinruilian 1650rpm 2x Yate Loon Slim 1800rpm Alphacool Light Tower 
OSOSMonitorKeyboard
Windows 7 Gentoo GNU/Linux Dell UltraSharp U2412M CM Storm Trigger MX Brown 
PowerCaseMouse
Corsair AX750 Corsair Carbide 300R Logitech G400 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD OPTERON BULLDOZER 16-CORE 2GHZ (32GHZ TOTAL) ALIENWARE 3+1 PHASE ITX GAMING BOARD 4GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GT 430 32GB GAMING DDR3 800MHZ CL13 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
2TB 5400RPM GAMING HDD GAMING BLU RAY BURNER ONE GAMING CASE FAN UBUNTU W/ UNITY (I AM 1337 H4X0R) 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
HD-READY 24" 1366X768 PENTILE TN PANEL GAMING M... ALIENWARE TACTX UBER 1337 BACKLIT RUBBER MEMBRA... OFF-BRAND 200W GAMING PSU; 65% EFFICIENCY  ALIENWARE GAMING CASE WITH THE COOL GLOWING ALIEN 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
ALIENWARE TACTX GAMING MOUSE ALIENWARE MOUSEPAD IT'S DESIGNED FOR GAMING AND... BEATS AUDIO 1337 ALIENWARE TACTX 8-CHANNEL GAMING HEADSET/M... 
OtherOther
16 CORES!!!! 4GB VRAM!!!! FASTER THAN 3960X + 7... ALIENWARE GAMING CARPET 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD A6-3420M OC 2.2GHz / 3GHz Turbo 1.10625v ASUS A53Z AMD Radeon HD 6520G 6GB DDR3 1333MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
320GB WD Scorpio Black yes. really good Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Fedora GNU/Linux 1366x768 LED-backlit TN panel Decent + numpad ~5hr 6-cell li-ion 
Audio
Altec Lansing 
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Kalki
(25 items)
 
Alienware
(18 items)
 
ASUS A53Z
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD FX-8320 @ 4.73GHz Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Radeon HD 7950 @ 1200/1800 8GB Samsung 30nm DDR3 @ 2000MHz 11-11-11-28-1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
128GB Crucial M4 1TB Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 2TB Seagate Barracuda ST 7200 RPM who cares 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XSPC Raystorm XSPC Razor HD 7970 XSPC EX240 Swiftech MCP50X 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Black Ice GT Stealth 240 2x XSPC Xinruilian 1650rpm 2x Yate Loon Slim 1800rpm Alphacool Light Tower 
OSOSMonitorKeyboard
Windows 7 Gentoo GNU/Linux Dell UltraSharp U2412M CM Storm Trigger MX Brown 
PowerCaseMouse
Corsair AX750 Corsair Carbide 300R Logitech G400 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD OPTERON BULLDOZER 16-CORE 2GHZ (32GHZ TOTAL) ALIENWARE 3+1 PHASE ITX GAMING BOARD 4GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GT 430 32GB GAMING DDR3 800MHZ CL13 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
2TB 5400RPM GAMING HDD GAMING BLU RAY BURNER ONE GAMING CASE FAN UBUNTU W/ UNITY (I AM 1337 H4X0R) 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
HD-READY 24" 1366X768 PENTILE TN PANEL GAMING M... ALIENWARE TACTX UBER 1337 BACKLIT RUBBER MEMBRA... OFF-BRAND 200W GAMING PSU; 65% EFFICIENCY  ALIENWARE GAMING CASE WITH THE COOL GLOWING ALIEN 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
ALIENWARE TACTX GAMING MOUSE ALIENWARE MOUSEPAD IT'S DESIGNED FOR GAMING AND... BEATS AUDIO 1337 ALIENWARE TACTX 8-CHANNEL GAMING HEADSET/M... 
OtherOther
16 CORES!!!! 4GB VRAM!!!! FASTER THAN 3960X + 7... ALIENWARE GAMING CARPET 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD A6-3420M OC 2.2GHz / 3GHz Turbo 1.10625v ASUS A53Z AMD Radeon HD 6520G 6GB DDR3 1333MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
320GB WD Scorpio Black yes. really good Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Fedora GNU/Linux 1366x768 LED-backlit TN panel Decent + numpad ~5hr 6-cell li-ion 
Audio
Altec Lansing 
  hide details  
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