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[OFFICIAL]--- Top 30 --- Unigine 'Valley' Benchmark 1.0 - Page 476

post #4751 of 13364
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3illusiveman View Post

Lol why is this debate only starting to gain alot of traction now that the 780 released lol.

Doesn't really have that much to do with that, someone just mentioned the driver settings in this thread and people who didn't know about them went nuts lol.
Quote:
Anyways, when reviewers review games they use the standard driver settings for all games and benchmarks (Why wouldn't they tweak their drivers for synthetics benchmarks for the cards they review if it's fair? They don't do it because it levels the playing field by letting Nvidia and AMD do it officially)

Reviewers test default settings because they usually test the default experience you get with either brand. They're not in the business of tweaking each card to the max. The same reason why they don't include custom bioses in overclocking reviews of the Titan for example.
Quote:
The point is leave it be.... It's obvious some people already ran benchmarks with tweaks and got them into the charts but allowing everyone to do it now does a disservice to all the previous people who ran the benchmarks stock. I think a separate chart should be created for people who want to tweak their cards through the driver settings, it's the only compromise that works imo.

No, banning it will do a disservice to the people who didn't run their scores with driver setting changes. If it's banned they'll never be able to get the advantage others were able to get.

And creating more categories will just fragment the charts and it'll be less interesting for all parties involved. The more people in the same list the better. Creates more discussion.
Quote:
To the people saying IQ doesn't matter its a benchmark... you're missing the point. How can you be proud of your score knowing you won by lowering your IQ to do it?

By knowing that it's an undetectable IQ change. Why would you want to get less fps in order to get something you can't see? It's called optimizing, if you can get the same looking result while using less GPU power that's only a good thing, not bad.

That and by knowing that driver settings have always been a part of benching competitions. It's expected that people use them.

For the people who do use them, everyone just learning about this and crying foul is a bit like people just learning about overclocking and crying foul.
 
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post #4752 of 13364
EVGA GTX 580 SLI 820/1640/2100 I7 2600k @ 4ghz

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post #4753 of 13364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Doesn't really have that much to do with that, someone just mentioned the driver settings in this thread and people who didn't know about them went nuts lol.
Yea... sure...
Quote:
Reviewers test default settings because they usually test the default experience you get with either brand. They're not in the business of tweaking each card to the max. The same reason why they don't include custom bioses in overclocking reviews of the Titan for example.

I always saw this thread as a card overclocking comparison rather than a driver tweaking one. I'd make my card run as quickly as possible and post the results not fiddle with software to get an edge over other people. Where is the fun in that? i remember people waiting for nighttime so they could open their windows and let the cold air help them run higher overclocks,
Quote:
No, banning it will do a disservice to the people who didn't run their scores with driver setting changes. If it's banned they'll never be able to get the advantage others were able to get.

And creating more categories will just fragment the charts and it'll be less interesting for all parties involved. The more people in the same list the better. Creates more discussion.

You're talking about fragmentation while advocating the use of driver tweaking? tell me something, what do you think would create more fragmented results. A person plugging in their GPU installing drivers and running it and posting benchmarks results here. Or a person plugging in their GPU, installing drivers and tweaking different settings (everyone running different tweaks) and then running the bench and posting it here? Which results do you think would be more consistent? Obviously the most simple plug and play version. Introduce driver tweaking and you introduce a whole bunch of variables. People running the exact same overclocks will get different FPS even with the same hardware.
Quote:
By knowing that it's an undetectable IQ change. Why would you want to get less fps in order to get something you can't see? It's called optimizing, if you can get the same looking result while using less GPU power that's only a good thing, not bad.

That and by knowing that driver settings have always been a part of benching competitions. It's expected that people use them.

For the people who do use them, everyone just learning about this and crying foul is a bit like people just learning about overclocking and crying foul.

It's still a change in IQ from what the other person is running. Another example of this (although more extreme) would be using 4x AA instead of 8x AA in a benchmark. The difference in IQ would be "undetectable" but it would still have a performance advantage. I don't see how you can be content with competing against results from people who ran with standard driver settings while using tweaked ones.
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post #4754 of 13364
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3illusiveman View Post

Yea... sure...

Well that is how it popped up, you can read into the reasons behind as much as you want but it's not like there's any way to prove anything.
Quote:
I always saw this thread as a card overclocking comparison rather than a driver tweaking one. I'd make my card run as quickly as possible and post the results not fiddle with software to get an edge over other people. Where is the fun in that? i remember people waiting for nighttime so they could open their windows and let the cold air help them run higher overclocks,

It's a benchmark, people run benches in a way that will net the best possible score. Part of that is overclocking, part of it is making sure your software side is good enough. It's not just one or the other. And that's how it has always been with benching...
Quote:
You're talking about fragmentation while advocating the use of driver tweaking? tell me something, what do you think would create more fragmented results. A person plugging in their GPU installing drivers and running it and posting benchmarks results here. Or a person plugging in their GPU, installing drivers and tweaking different settings (everyone running different tweaks) and then running the bench and posting it here? Which results do you think would be more consistent? Obviously the most simple plug and play version. Introduce driver tweaking and you introduce a whole bunch of variables. People running the exact same overclocks will get different FPS even with the same hardware.

Yes exactly, that's the whole point. That's how benchmarking works. What you're talking about is called efficiency. It means that you can't just go at a bench with pure clock speeds and expect a perfect score when you're running a bloated windows install and haven't fine tuned your drivers for the bench in question. It's supposed to create more variables, it makes the benchmark more complicated to master, and you need to know things and spend some time in order to get that maxed out result. That's good. Not bad.

As for fragmenting, driver settings don't fragment anything, it just means that there are people in the list that didn't bother with fine tuning. The people who do do that shouldn't be punished because others didn't bother.

As for what does fragment the whole thread is dividing people into even more categories.
Quote:
It's still a change in IQ from what the other person is running. Another example of this (although more extreme) would be using 4x AA instead of 8x AA in a benchmark. The difference in IQ would be "undetectable" but it would still have a performance advantage. I don't see how you can be content with competing against results from people who ran with standard driver settings while using tweaked ones.

And you still don't understand that there is no level playing field in the first place. When AMD and Nvidia update their drivers they are constantly fine tuning stuff like this. Small IQ changes here and there, undetectable ones but they do make a difference. It's optimizing, same thing that's happening here.

And going from 4xAA to 8xAA isn't undetectable, and more importantly it's a setting within the application itself. You can't go changing settings and disabling features. The Texture filtering within the Nvidia control panel is an option about how the drivers themselves handle textures. It's not about changing a setting to a lower value, it's about how the Nvidia driver/card processes the image.

So again, when I'm running the same settings as everyone else and getting an image that looks the same, why does it matter if I used a slider somewhere to improve my performance? Why shouldn't you use that? There are only positives to using it.

E: We have the people who bench as a hobby all here telling you the same thing while the people who are new to the discussion are taking the word "tweak" and using it like it's bad somehow. Like it's cheating. And that unfortunately is missing the point entirely. Go look over hwbot rules, there's a reason they are the way they are.
Edited by Alatar - 5/28/13 at 12:09am
 
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post #4755 of 13364
If we have a score update do we still have to post another screenshot or just fill out the form?
post #4756 of 13364
this isn't HWbot lol. Why are you so against having a separate chart created for people who want to tweak their drivers anyways? I don't have anything against tweaking your drivers to get a better score, i'm against mixing those results in with people who didn't. It doesn't seem fair, keeping them separate is something I have zero issues with.
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post #4757 of 13364
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3illusiveman View Post

this isn't HWbot lol. Why are you so against having a separate chart created for people who want to tweak their drivers anyways? I don't have anything against tweaking your drivers to get a better score, i'm against mixing those results in with people who didn't. It doesn't seem fair, keeping them separate is something I have zero issues with.


Because it means more work and the current data already has people who have "tweaked" in it. Just like overclocking why shouldn't people have a choice to change settings in their drivers? People keep throwing the word "tweak" around like its a bad thing when this really isn't tweaking since its just a basic and readily available setting that Nvidia offers to its users.

It isn't exactly fair to compare LN2 Overclocks to Air Overclocks either but oh wait... We do.


Edit:
Optimizing driver settings is not something new and has been around for decades. I'm not sure why you seem to think that there is any form of unfair advantage here since it's been available to everyone for quite some time. Those people who submitted previously can obviously resubmit again if they wanted just as many people already have done.


Why should people who know about driver optimizations and settings be punished by being segregated into another group entirely?
Edited by Feud - 5/28/13 at 12:54am
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post #4758 of 13364
Because there's no way to detect it, because probably half of the scores on the list are already made after fine tuning drivers and because I don't want lists with half as much people on them (which would result in people comparing and discussing their scores much less then before).

And because it makes no sense in the first place to have a separate list for the people who run the bench optimally. Just because person X doesn't bother with doing any optimizations doesn't mean he/she should get a separate list/category
 
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post #4759 of 13364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feud View Post

Because it means more work and the current data already has people who have "tweaked" in it. Just like overclocking why shouldn't people have a choice to change settings in their drivers? People keep throwing the word "tweak" around like its a bad thing when this really isn't tweaking since its just a basic and readily available setting that Nvidia offers to its users.

It isn't exactly fair to compare LN2 Overclocks to Air Overclocks either but oh wait... We do.
I make tweaking sound bad only when people try and stuff that data in with people who didn't do it. It doesn't mean more work then he already does. All it means is entering data in a different spreadsheet.

And who in their right minds seriously does this? LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Because there's no way to detect it, because probably half of the scores on the list are already made after fine tuning drivers and because I don't want lists with half as much people on them (which would result in people comparing and discussing their scores much less then before).

And because it makes no sense in the first place to have a separate list for the people who run the bench optimally. Just because person X doesn't bother with doing any optimizations doesn't mean he/she should get a separate list/category
Yea right, most of those score are probably using stock drivers, the absolute highest ones... probably not. Sure the list is flawed but allowing this just makes it even more so.

It makes complete sense to have a separate list. One for people who run their cards with stock driver settings and another for people who don't. If X person doesn't bother doing any optimizations then group him in with others who don't. If someone wants to do that stuff then group in with people who do. Why do you want to compete against people who don't run your "optimized" drivers so bad?
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post #4760 of 13364
Why not create separate groups for all sorts of cooling, all windows versions, all driver versions, and so on?

Tweak =/= cheat

It's just another way of making the bench run better. People who do it should be grouped with the people who don't. The entire reason for doing it is to gain an advantage over the inferior default settings in the drivers.
 
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Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Benchmarks › Benchmarking Software and Discussion › [OFFICIAL]--- Top 30 --- Unigine 'Valley' Benchmark 1.0