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[Tesla Motors] New York Times - Test Drive Fail - Page 13

post #121 of 178
I gave this car a try and I was amazed at it. If I had the choice, I will choose a tesla car over bmw's 750i sedan any day.
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post #122 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Hmm, yeah, was there actually a point to that random, disjointed outburst? I wasn't aware that the dinosaurs' downfall was due to a reliance on fossil fuels?
That "random, disjointed outburst" was in response in your lack of awareness of the problems and complications with dependence on oil.

Does September 11, 2001 not mean jack to you?
post #123 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by adramalech707 View Post

I really think we need to invest more into nuclear energy and off the grid solar arrays. The problem with it is that too many environmentalist who use the Japanese Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster and the Three Mile island event as a reason to not do nuclear at all. It has become political voting fodder to campaign against nuclear energy even though nuclear is more stable and more effective power source than anything else we have, of course with proper and regular monitoring, maintenance, and inspections of the nuclear plants. Nuclear energy by far would; first, rid us off spiking energy costs, and second remove our dependency on foreign oil and allow the other state actors to attain resources without more conflicts.

In theory, you are absolutely correct. We know how to use nuclear power in a way that is safer and more reliable than any other energy source.

However, in reality the people paying to have the power plants constructed are guaranteed to be criminally negligent and to cut corners by not including safety measures that are required for the "safer and more reliable" theory to apply. For example, it was known at the time that Fukushima was built that a thick pad of graphite under the core (a core catcher) is a good safety precaution to implement to guard against groundwater contamination in the event of a meltdown. However, it would have been expensive, so they cut that corner - no such mat was installed.

The scientists and engineers designing the plants are not at fault. The theory and designs are sound, and it should work if implemented as designed.

The industrialists who build them can't be trusted to follow the design.
post #124 of 178
Having actually been against electric cars, I drove one a few weeks back and holy mother of god i was shocked, unlike a standard car where maybe 5% of the energy made by the engine actually reaches the wheels, Almost all of it does from an electric car, i put my foot to the floor and POOOOF off i went, they say you can get what 600km's from a single charge? soon as they come down i'm buying one.
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post #125 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyparker1337 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia 
The base Model S starts at US$59,900 with a 40 kW·h battery pack up to US$79,900 with the 85 kW·h pack before any government subsidies.

Pretty expensive.

If you consider the fuel costs of a normal car.

95MPG is what the lower 40 kW-h is rated for, when you convert the energy cost over to gasoline.
At $3.20 per gallon of gas in the US, that would be roughly 3¢ per mile in "fuel" costs if it were to use gasoline.
However it doesn't use gasoline and using the current electricity cost in the US of 12¢ per kWh and the fact that this car gets 100miles per 35kWh...
Then this car actually costs 4¢ per mile to drive, or $1 per 25miles.

47MPG is what the 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid gets.
So at $3.20 per gallon of gas in US, that would be roughly 7¢ per mile, or $1.75 per 25miles.
This car costs $27,200.

The 2013 Ford Focus costs $16,200 and gets roughly 32MPG.
At the same $3.20 per gallon of gas, that would be roughly 10¢ per mile, or $2.5 per 25miles.

2013 Tesla Model S = $59,900 (Base Line)
2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid -= +$32,700 than Tesla and 3¢ fuel difference.
2013 Ford Focus = +$43,700 than Tesla and 6¢ fuel difference.

For the Fusion, it would take roughly 1,090,000 miles to to cost the same as the Tesla.
For the Focus, it would take roughly 728,333 miles to cost the same as the Tesla.

Let's say that all the cars last roughly 200,000 miles and requires no maintenance.
The total cost of the Model S is $67,900.
The total cost of the Fusion is $41,200.
The total cost of the Focus is $36,200.

So while the car is technically super efficient on "fuel", costing only 4¢ per mile
(which is 75% more efficient than the Fusion, and 150% more efficient than the Focus),

the actual base cost of the car sends it skyrocketing out of total efficiency
(being 40% less efficient than the Fusion and 47% less efficient than the Focus).

I conclude that base price and quality of parts is much more important than fuel efficiency.

That's why they are working to improve on the pricing by reducing it, which has been shown they are proactively doing this since they realize it. I don't plan on buying a new car for around 5 years so hopefully the technology takes off by then.

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post #126 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirmie View Post

Any proof? I've never seen any proof the help with actual MPG. It's always that they increase power on demand so that the vehicle can have the acceleration with a lower output when cruising. Though at this point I'm getting into a bit of semantics since what I mean is that the turbo isn't adding the mileage, but rather allowing for a design that gets better mileage without a person feeling like they are in a stock Chevette.

A turbo will, generally, increase the efficiency of an engine.

It will lower absolute mileage, but it will allow a much smaller engine, with much better base mileage, to have enough power to move a vehicle at an acceptable pace, with a much lower increase in fuel consumption than simply dropping in a larger displacement non-turbo engine.

Something like a 1.0L turbo four (for example) could acceptably replace many naturally aspirated larger displacement engines of roughly similar power, and provide better mileage while doing so. The turbo four would be more expensive, but even if it cost twice the six, it's going to be a lot cheaper than a hybrid power train.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flash2021 View Post

...also power transmission is not lossless in the HV lines that run from plant -> distribution nodes -> your neighboorhood

Of course it's not, but neither is moving fuel around, and even by the time it gets to your home, electricity off the grid is still lower emissions per kWH than any gasoline ICE in a car is going to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitech View Post

That "random, disjointed outburst" was in response in your lack of awareness of the problems and complications with dependence on oil.

Does September 11, 2001 not mean jack to you?

This post is at least as absurd as the one you are replying to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayleyne View Post

Having actually been against electric cars, I drove one a few weeks back and holy mother of god i was shocked, unlike a standard car where maybe 5% of the energy made by the engine actually reaches the wheels, Almost all of it does from an electric car, i put my foot to the floor and POOOOF off i went, they say you can get what 600km's from a single charge? soon as they come down i'm buying one.

It's closer to 15-25% for a modern gasoline powered car, and 90%+ for an electric car. That's not the difference you felt though.

Electric motors simply have monstrous torque and quicker response to throttle changes.
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post #127 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Electric motors simply have monstrous torque and quicker response to throttle changes.

This. I would love to take a ride in a Tesla S just to feel it. Instant response. beautiful
post #128 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by flash2021 View Post

zero emissions is a bit of a misdirection in itself. if you use say, 100 kWh in a new tesla (or whatever), you are using 100 kWh equivalent of coal/oil/gas burned at the plant to generate it....anyone see the south park episode with the SMUG CLOUD when ppl started buying hybrids?

The Smug is killing us all!!! ohh noes thumb.gif

So the statistics for total usage 2011 was 4,100,656 (all numbers are in Thousand Megawatthours units)

Percentages: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Coal: 1,733,430 (42.27%)
Nat. Gas: 1,013,689 (24.72%)
Other Gas: 11,566 (0.282%)
Pet Liquid: 16,068 (0.392%)
Petcoke: 14,096 (0.344% )

Fossil-Fuels and "high emission" material was 68.008% of the entire US consumption.

While Nuclear was 790,204 (19.27%) of the total.

All renewable to include hydroelectric minus pump costs and renewable included was only 507,431 (12.37%)

Others was only 0.352%.
I know that these are general statistics and some states like California use more renewable than other states, but it cannot overcome the overwhelming majority of the numbers that as a whole we use more Coal than we do renewable.

The problem with electric cars is they are too costly to produce and the maintenance fees and servicing fees are at a premium. The overall cost of a gas/diesel fueled vehicle would cost half as much as one electric vehicle over the electric vehicles life time. Also the fact of the matter is how the hell can someone take this in rural areas without running out of fuel! I am also used to being able to work on my vehicles and motorcycles. How the hell are we suppose to be able to work on electric vehicles that take so much diagnostic tools etc. I mean even newer fuel efficient cars are taking more computer electronics that make us either demand tools to fix it ourselves or techs. that take high wages.

I mean look the environmentalists even was well bio-diesel is sooo much better, I saw bio-fuels as a complete and utter disaster after the corn drought left corn prices sky-rocketing. Even take at how the Ethanol caused world food shortages as people used food to fuel vehicles leaving the price of food to sky rocket in developing nations and even in the U.S. US increases Ethanal and The damage of Ethanol on Corn farmers.

I rather save my money and buy one tweaked out Fiat 500 Abarth Venoms and one Ducati 848 Corse EVO and still probably come out with less cost than one Tesla Model S over a years maintenance and fuel costs.
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post #129 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by adramalech707 View Post

The Smug is killing us all!!! ohh noes thumb.gif

So the statistics for total usage 2011 was 4,100,656 (all numbers are in Thousand Megawatthours units)

Percentages: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Coal: 1,733,430 (42.27%)
Nat. Gas: 1,013,689 (24.72%)
Other Gas: 11,566 (0.282%)
Pet Liquid: 16,068 (0.392%)
Petcoke: 14,096 (0.344% )

Fossil-Fuels and "high emission" material was 68.008% of the entire US consumption.

While Nuclear was 790,204 (19.27%) of the total.

All renewable to include hydroelectric minus pump costs and renewable included was only 507,431 (12.37%)

Others was only 0.352%.
I know that these are general statistics and some states like California use more renewable than other states, but it cannot overcome the overwhelming majority of the numbers that as a whole we use more Coal than we do renewable.

The problem with electric cars is they are too costly to produce and the maintenance fees and servicing fees are at a premium. The overall cost of a gas/diesel fueled vehicle would cost half as much as one electric vehicle over the electric vehicles life time. Also the fact of the matter is how the hell can someone take this in rural areas without running out of fuel! I am also used to being able to work on my vehicles and motorcycles. How the hell are we suppose to be able to work on electric vehicles that take so much diagnostic tools etc. I mean even newer fuel efficient cars are taking more computer electronics that make us either demand tools to fix it ourselves or techs. that take high wages.

I mean look the environmentalists even was well bio-diesel is sooo much better, I saw bio-fuels as a complete and utter disaster after the corn drought left corn prices sky-rocketing. Even take at how the Ethanol caused world food shortages as people used food to fuel vehicles leaving the price of food to sky rocket in developing nations and even in the U.S. US increases Ethanal and The damage of Ethanol on Corn farmers.

I rather save my money and buy one tweaked out Fiat 500 Abarth Venoms and one Ducati 848 Corse EVO and still probably come out with less cost than one Tesla Model S over a years maintenance and fuel costs.

Would you argue then that it makes sense in WA where 2/3 of the power is hydroelectric then? source
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post #130 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

Would you argue then that it makes sense in WA where 2/3 of the power is hydroelectric then? source

I would say yes but that is a subset place of a better arrangement for electric cars. However it still doesn't take into account for the storage of this electricity and the fact of what is used in the material on the vehicle itself to store energy is still inefficient, the cost is inefficient to produce a vehicle. Also the fact that most of WA state has a way colder climate than most states means that it would be difficult to deal with power outages etc...

Washington state is also #25 for population density being 102.6 inhabitants per square mile, and the fact that Washington state is only 2.1971% of the estimated total population of the U.S. in 2012 means that it could be an outlier. It still doesn't help the fact that Washington still has a rural areas where it isn't easy to find a charging station. They also show ~60% of the populous live around Seattle area.

Really my answer is I don't know! It could be a good test-bed to start in the west coast side (with Puget Energy), but over to the eastern side is really iffy. However with a lot of other factors I still think we need to start building up renewable and nuclear before we switch to electric vehicles at all. I mean how can you plug in an electric vehicle in a rural area or charge it in the overcast and rainy season in WA with solar it won't happen. I can always find gas stations or truck in gasoline, but until we can provide electricity to rural areas and store it as easily as gasoline we don't have a chance in hell. Washington does have an average ~20% less cost of kWh than the rest of the U.S. pdf and has some nice insentives tax-wise source.

Here is a good site for state-to-state energy production breakdown. http://www.acore.org/publications/50states

**EDIT**

I mean even California would be a good test-bed because we are one of the lead states of renewable energy, however the fact that we still produce way more renewable than alot of states is still overshadowed by how many people we have and the overall demand is more than the 33% alternative energy sources gives us.
Edited by adramalech707 - 2/16/13 at 12:05pm
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