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[Tesla Motors] New York Times - Test Drive Fail - Page 14

post #131 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by adramalech707 View Post

The problem with electric cars is they are too costly to produce and the maintenance fees and servicing fees are at a premium. The overall cost of a gas/diesel fueled vehicle would cost half as much as one electric vehicle over the electric vehicles life time. Also the fact of the matter is how the hell can someone take this in rural areas without running out of fuel! I am also used to being able to work on my vehicles and motorcycles. How the hell are we suppose to be able to work on electric vehicles that take so much diagnostic tools etc. I mean even newer fuel efficient cars are taking more computer electronics that make us either demand tools to fix it ourselves or techs. that take high wages.

I mean look the environmentalists even was well bio-diesel is sooo much better, I saw bio-fuels as a complete and utter disaster after the corn drought left corn prices sky-rocketing. Even take at how the Ethanol caused world food shortages as people used food to fuel vehicles leaving the price of food to sky rocket in developing nations and even in the U.S. US increases Ethanal and The damage of Ethanol on Corn farmers.

There's always an added cost for early adopters and as complexity increases. Gas powered automobiles were expensive and a rarity until Ford's assembly line came along. Early computers were the size of a room and cost a small fortune. As alternative fuel sources for cars, be they electric, hydrogen, biofuel, or some other source, become more common, the prices will drop and servicing and maintenance fees will drop since the parts will be more common and you'll have more trained mechanics to work on them. It's also not fair to compare luxury cars like the Tesla to your common everyday cars. They're more akin to a BWM, Aston, Jag, or Mercedes.

While I see your point that it's harder to work on them now, that's the course of advancement. Every great technological advance has made it difficult for older generations to understand or work on the new tech, but every generation, we see younger people picking up the tech and understanding it, even if it's in more focused areas.

And don't be so quick to dismiss bio-diesel. Corn is not a good stock for biodiesel and has been legitimately criticized by many. In fact, the US depends far too much on corn for feedstock, food additives, and other things as is. There are much better crops out there to grow, but the fact that large corporations own most the land out there and get heavily subsidized for growing corn pretty much means that that won't be changing any time soon. There are much better sources for biofuel, such as switch grass, algae, biomass from trees, and even garbage, that grow faster, are easier to harvest, and/or have better weight to fuel ratios.
Edited by nubbinator - 2/16/13 at 2:20pm
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post #132 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyparker1337 View Post

Pretty expensive.

If you consider the fuel costs of a normal car.

95MPG is what the lower 40 kW-h is rated for, when you convert the energy cost over to gasoline.
At $3.20 per gallon of gas in the US, that would be roughly 3¢ per mile in "fuel" costs if it were to use gasoline.
However it doesn't use gasoline and using the current electricity cost in the US of 12¢ per kWh and the fact that this car gets 100miles per 35kWh...
Then this car actually costs 4¢ per mile to drive, or $1 per 25miles.

47MPG is what the 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid gets.
So at $3.20 per gallon of gas in US, that would be roughly 7¢ per mile, or $1.75 per 25miles.
This car costs $27,200.

The 2013 Ford Focus costs $16,200 and gets roughly 32MPG.
At the same $3.20 per gallon of gas, that would be roughly 10¢ per mile, or $2.5 per 25miles.

2013 Tesla Model S = $59,900 (Base Line)
2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid -= +$32,700 than Tesla and 3¢ fuel difference.
2013 Ford Focus = +$43,700 than Tesla and 6¢ fuel difference.

For the Fusion, it would take roughly 1,090,000 miles to to cost the same as the Tesla.
For the Focus, it would take roughly 728,333 miles to cost the same as the Tesla.

Let's say that all the cars last roughly 200,000 miles and requires no maintenance.
The total cost of the Model S is $67,900.
The total cost of the Fusion is $41,200.
The total cost of the Focus is $36,200.

So while the car is technically super efficient on "fuel", costing only 4¢ per mile
(which is 75% more efficient than the Fusion, and 150% more efficient than the Focus),

the actual base cost of the car sends it skyrocketing out of total efficiency
(being 40% less efficient than the Fusion and 47% less efficient than the Focus).

I conclude that base price and quality of parts is much more important than fuel efficiency.

Problem is, comparing a Ford Fusion or Focus to a Tesla isn't correct. A Tesla is more against a Lexus, Mercedes and other high end cars. Maybe a comparison with a Lexus GS hybrid vs Tesla would be better.
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post #133 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

This post is at least as absurd as the one you are replying to.
How so?
post #134 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by nubbinator View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by adramalech707 View Post

The problem with electric cars is they are too costly to produce and the maintenance fees and servicing fees are at a premium. The overall cost of a gas/diesel fueled vehicle would cost half as much as one electric vehicle over the electric vehicles life time. Also the fact of the matter is how the hell can someone take this in rural areas without running out of fuel! I am also used to being able to work on my vehicles and motorcycles. How the hell are we suppose to be able to work on electric vehicles that take so much diagnostic tools etc. I mean even newer fuel efficient cars are taking more computer electronics that make us either demand tools to fix it ourselves or techs. that take high wages.

I mean look the environmentalists even was well bio-diesel is sooo much better, I saw bio-fuels as a complete and utter disaster after the corn drought left corn prices sky-rocketing. Even take at how the Ethanol caused world food shortages as people used food to fuel vehicles leaving the price of food to sky rocket in developing nations and even in the U.S. US increases Ethanal and The damage of Ethanol on Corn farmers.

There's always an added cost for early adopters and as complexity increases. Gas powered automobiles were expensive and a rarity until Ford's assembly line came along. Early computers were the size of a room and cost a small fortune. As alternative fuel sources for cars, be they electric, hydrogen, biofuel, or some other source, become more common, the prices will drop and servicing and maintenance fees will drop since the parts will be more common and you'll have more trained mechanics to work on them. It's also not fair to compare luxury cars like the Tesla to your common everyday cars. They're more akin to a BWM, Aston, Jag, or Mercedes.

While I see your point that it's harder to work on them now, that's the course of advancement. Every great technological advance has made it difficult for older generations to understand or work on the new tech, but every generation, we see younger people picking up the tech and understanding it, even if it's in more focused areas.

And don't be so quick to dismiss bio-diesel. Corn is not a good stock for biodiesel and has been legitimately criticized by many. In fact, the US depends far too much on corn for feedstock, food additives, and other things as is. There are much better crops out there to grow, but the fact that large corporations own most the land out there and get heavily subsidized for growing corn pretty much means that that won't be changing any time soon. There are much better sources for biofuel, such as switch grass, algae, biomass from trees, and even garbage, that grow faster, are easier to harvest, and/or have better weight to fuel ratios.

Someone has been taking notice of things.
A very true observation.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the future tho,not bio fuel,abundant supply and no harmful emissions as a byproduct of use are big plus points.
The only reason you dont see this tech in widespread use is its not in the interests of the big petroleum companies.


So,until cold fusion,make mine H.
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post #135 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Someone has been taking notice of things.
A very true observation.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the future tho,not bio fuel,abundant supply and no harmful emissions as a byproduct of use are big plus points.
The only reason you dont see this tech in widespread use is its not in the interests of the big petroleum companies.


So,until cold fusion,make mine H.

Look at the relative energy densities. That is the current problem. Your conspiracy theories are just getting in the way of dealing with the real issues.
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post #136 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmdehaan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Someone has been taking notice of things.
A very true observation.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the future tho,not bio fuel,abundant supply and no harmful emissions as a byproduct of use are big plus points.
The only reason you dont see this tech in widespread use is its not in the interests of the big petroleum companies.


So,until cold fusion,make mine H.

This is the biggest bunch of bull****. Look at the relative energy densities. That is the current problem. Your conspiracy theories are just getting in the way of dealing with the real issues.

Fuel density plays no part in this,availability and by product is what matters now,busting hydrogen from seawater means a limitless supply so relative density means jack.

The average H cell can power whole streets with ease,the motor has has only one moving part and no emissions apart from water. That is no conspiracy.
Do you know how many patents for alternative fuels these large petrochemical companies are sitting on?

Also,keep your foul language for the kids,it has no part here.
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post #137 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmdehaan View Post

This is the biggest bunch of bull****. Look at the relative energy densities. That is the current problem. Your conspiracy theories are just getting in the way of dealing with the real issues.

The main problem in researching alternative fuels is a lack of funding and subsidies that oil companies and corn conglomerates receive from the US government. It is entirely possible to support a country's oil needs with biofuel, Brazil is doing it after all, there just needs to be research into it and incentives for companies to actually push to discover new fuel sources. The government subsidies and the laughable "attempts" at alternative fuel sources (just go watch "Who killed the electric car") have made it where legitimate research into alternative fuel sources and more environmentally sustainable and conscious fuel sources have not been honestly researched.

And, yes, there is the problem of amount of land required to grow some kinds of sources for biofuels, but there are many alternatives that are only now beginning to be looked at, such as algae, debris from trees and remnants from logging, switch grass, soybeans, trash, and many other kinds of plant matter. As the technology evolves, so too will its efficiency since there's an incentive to actually have a more efficient conversion process.

As for hydrogen, there are several technologies that give you safe, pressurized hydrogen fuel cells with remarkable ranges...as long as you build the engine with efficiency in mind.
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post #138 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by nubbinator View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by nmdehaan View Post

This is the biggest bunch of bull****. Look at the relative energy densities. That is the current problem. Your conspiracy theories are just getting in the way of dealing with the real issues.

The main problem in researching alternative fuels is a lack of funding and subsidies that oil companies and corn conglomerates receive from the US government. It is entirely possible to support a country's oil needs with biofuel, Brazil is doing it after all, there just needs to be research into it and incentives for companies to actually push to discover new fuel sources. The government subsidies and the laughable "attempts" at alternative fuel sources (just go watch "Who killed the electric car") have made it where legitimate research into alternative fuel sources and more environmentally sustainable and conscious fuel sources have not been honestly researched.

And, yes, there is the problem of amount of land required to grow some kinds of sources for biofuels, but there are many alternatives that are only now beginning to be looked at, such as algae, debris from trees and remnants from logging, switch grass, soybeans, trash, and many other kinds of plant matter. As the technology evolves, so too will its efficiency since there's an incentive to actually have a more efficient conversion process.

As for hydrogen, there are several technologies that give you safe, pressurized hydrogen fuel cells with remarkable ranges...as long as you build the engine with efficiency in mind.

I did see a article in the storage of hydrogen in between the atoms in a metal,i will see if i can dig it up.....
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post #139 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Fuel density plays no part in this,availability and by product is what matters now,busting hydrogen from seawater means a limitless supply so relative density means jack.

The average H cell can power whole streets with ease,the motor has has only one moving part and no emissions apart from water. That is no conspiracy.
Do you know how many patents for alternative fuels these large petrochemical companies are sitting on?

Also,keep your foul language for the kids,it has no part here.

Hydrogen is no better than batteries in that you have to expend energy to get them (charge the batteries). Hydrogen at best is a form of energy storage, NOT energy production. Hydrogen does not solve the problem of where to get our energy from. Not to mention hydrogen fuel cells are less efficient than electrical motors and batteries.
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post #140 of 178
Here's my take on the whole thing:

It's too early to tell what type of alternate fuel will reign supreme in the next 50-100 years. Current oil reserves should last for at least about 50 more years. Now everyone is focused on cars, but airplanes, trucks and ships are much more dependent on the fuel. You can't put an electric motor in a jet plane to power it, and electric trucks will require big down-times for recharging. Ships will also require diesel engines for the foreseeable future.

So there will be applications for which alternatives to fossil fuels will be very limited if not so impractical as to make everything expensive. Everything you own has been transported by ship/plane and truck.
With cars the solution is a bit simpler I think but with a lot of work to be put in.

If most people owned a garage then we could keep the bigger gas powered car there and only use it on longer trips - while the smaller electric city car can be parked and recharged on the streets.
There is no immediate future for all purpose electric vehicles. There will always be some place you might like to go to but couldn't due to lack of recharging stations or long waiting periods.

Whether or not electric vehicles are better overall for the environment or account balance is debatable but there is no debate that a city with preponderantly electric cars will be quieter and have cleaner air.

So I say this: Small electric cars for the city, proper gas powered cars for everything else with wiggle room in between.
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