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[Tesla Motors] New York Times - Test Drive Fail - Page 17

post #161 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by esp42089 View Post

Lithium Ion is better but hasn't replaced NmH or Ni-Cd batteries yet for a variety of reasons.

The crap, Li-Ion has been loooooooong superseeded. Li-Po offers way higher power density at similar cost, and Li-Fe offers similar power density without fire risks or any expansion at all.

And Li-Po nanopolymers improves on Li-Po's discharge capacities, making them go over nine thousand.
   
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post #162 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-nefer View Post

His problem was his reasons were FUD wink.gif
Agree so far - the batteries (and future improvements to battery technology) will either make or break electric vehicle proliferation.
Actually this is not correct for the batteries that are being used in Electric Vehicles. EV batteries production is more environmentally friendly then producing fuel from crude oil by a long shot.
These are not used in modern electric vehicles anyway.
Lithium Ion replaced Ni-Cad batteries in the lareg majority of EVs years ago. As for NiMH, since Chevron owns the patents to Ni-MH, EV manufacturers have been using other cell chemistrys like li-Ion and LiFePO4 anyway instead.

I agree he was not providing very convincing arguments.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the making batteries front. Do to regulations and a general desire to do so, all batteries are made in a similiar manner with as small a pollution cost as possible. Companies have an expensive road ahead of them if they are caught polluting above regulation levels.

Producing batteries create some pretty bad chemical byproducts and heavy metals. I will edit this post later with actual facts, I don't have time to go fetch them right now.

It's good that they have moved on from Ni based batteries. Last I had heard, which now that you mention it was 09 or so, they weren't able to use Lithium based batteries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

The crap, Li-Ion has been loooooooong superseeded. Li-Po offers way higher power density at similar cost, and Li-Fe offers similar power density without fire risks or any expansion at all.

And Li-Po nanopolymers improves on Li-Po's discharge capacities, making them go over nine thousand.

I'll look into Li-Po and Li-Fe tech. Polonium is really nasty stuff though; I can't imagine it is cheap or environmentally friendly to process it.
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post #163 of 178
I believe Li-Po stands for Lithium polymer not polonium.
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post #164 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by esp42089 View Post

Producing batteries create some pretty bad chemical byproducts and heavy metals. I will edit this post later with actual facts, I don't have time to go fetch them right now.
I'm simply pointing out that producing the fuel you use in your ICE vehicle does too, so on the manufacturing side of it there is little difference as both pollute during the process - so you need to look past that part and onto the next, and from that point onwards, electric vehicles come out ahead of ICE vehicles with less pollution and nill emissions wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by esp42089 View Post

It's good that they have moved on from Ni based batteries. Last I had heard, which now that you mention it was 09 or so, they weren't able to use Lithium based batteries.
It was mostly Li-ion that was a problem earlier on - mostly due to the size of the cells and how many would be required in an EV battery - but smart people have come up with solutions for that now so it isn't too much of a problem.

The biggest problem with EV's is the cost of manufacturing the battery, the cells are expensive to make and they need a lot of them to form a battery that would have the energy capacity to suit the type of mileage that consumers require from a vehicle.

But as things become popular and as competition is introduced into the market, the cost of manufacturing does eventually drop and when this happens in the EV battery industry, it will make the cost of EVs come down too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by esp42089 View Post

I'll look into Li-Po and Li-Fe tech. Polonium is really nasty stuff though; I can't imagine it is cheap or environmentally friendly to process it.
As above, it is Lithium-Polymer, nothing to do with polonium - but to be clear, I was referring to a totally different cell chemistry in my earlier reply. I stated LiFePO4, commonly know as Lithium Iron Phosphate, and LiFePO4 is actually one of the more environmentally friendly chemistry as each LiFePO4 cell is 99%-100% recyclable (depends on brand and components used in casing etc), plus it uses much easier to obtain phosphate instead of cobalt like other Lithium cell types which makes them cheaper to manufacturer.

LiFePO4 is also a more stable composition then the other Lithium cell types, and offers improved cycle life and high current abilities, making them much better suited for use in EV batteries.

There are also some trying to improve on the LiFePO4 chemistry using nanotechnology to improve anode and cathode coatings and lower resistance for much better performance.
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post #165 of 178
I don't see electric cars going anywhere anytime soon. That is, unless we get graphene batteries. Right now, electric car batteries need to be replaced every 20-30k miles. At a cost of 8k+ depending on the car. Wow that seems worth it.. especially when you're confined to how far you can go between charges which takes a loong time.
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post #166 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

I don't see electric cars going anywhere anytime soon.
It is sad that this is a shared view by the majority, because we are squandering our natural resources when we could be using different technologies to ensure our limited natural resources go further and last longer.

Considering the number of petrochemical items that the developed world relies on, you would think there would be more of a push by the Governments of developed countries to move away from ICE vehicles as soon as possible...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

Right now, electric car batteries need to be replaced every 20-30k miles.
This is wrong and a common misconception based on EV battery performance from the last decade. A lot has change with EV technology, and the batteries used in them are mych more capable now

The lithium batteries used in the majority of production EVs are rated at much more then you've claimed above, here are just a few:
Nissan Leaf: 8 years/100,000 mile guarantee from Nissan
Tesla Model S: 8 years/125,000 mi (201,000 km) warranty
Ford Focus EV: 10 years/150,000 miles
Chevy Volt: 8 years/100,000 mile warranty
Mitsubishi i-MiEV: 8 years/100,000 mile warranty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

At a cost of 8k+ depending on the car. Wow that seems worth it..
While you may look at an $8K cost as high and not worth it, you really need to consider the bigger picture.

The EV's I have listed above have a battery pack that the manufacturer will give warranty/guarantee for a min of 8 years. How much do you think you would spend on your ICE vehicle's engine and/or engine accessories in 8 years? How much do you think you would spend on all those engine services just to make it keep running for 8 years? What if something major goes wrong with your engine, how much does a rebuild for the engine in a modern vehicle cost?

When used in context, $8,000 is not really that much for a one of fee every 8-10 years wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

especially when you're confined to how far you can go between charges which takes a loong time.
All the EV's I have listed will easily cover the daily distance traveled by car owners. In fact, all of those listed can easily do double the US national average of miles traveled each day by a car owner. It's very important to point out that 99% of US car owners commute less than 60 miles a day and 99% of trips are less than 70 miles a day - both easily supported by the EVs I have listed.

Regarding charging EVs, the time required depends on the charger used. In the US, most will simply opt for a 240v/24A charger at their home, which would charge the majority of EVs I have listed from flat to fully charged in approx 16 hours. But considering the average distances I have listed above, the battery would never be completely flat, so the charge times would be much faster.

eg. If your daily commute to/from work was 40 miles, and you used a 240v/24A home charger, it would only take ~2 hours to charge your car to full again.

Now lets assume you would prefer a faster charging option at home, and you opt for a 240v/40A charger - in the above scenario, it would now only take just over an hour to charge your car fully after a 40 mile commute.

The main thing to remember is that if you own an EV, all you need to do is plug the car into the charger when you get home and you'll be fully charged come the next morning and depending on the EV you own, you are good for another 100miles-300miles of driving - it really isn't that hard to grasp at all.
Edited by un-nefer - 2/24/13 at 3:32am
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post #167 of 178
so the overall point I'm trying to focus on here is the perception of the electric car coming from your average (under)educated citizen (specifically having to do with electric cars).....
I DO like the idea of the relocation and consolidation of your pollution source, then you only need to focus on keeping the generating plants running efficiently and as clean as possible instead of worrying about each and every car

BUT

I'd say if you asked, lets say 60% of the population on the streets in one of those "floating head" interviews, that they would not be able to explain in 15 seconds where electricty comes from [ above a 3rd grader "from the outlet" explanation]

and I'd say a far smaller majority can give you pros and cons for gas/nuclear/coal/CNG/biofuels, much less how each is harvested and environmental concerns for each one...therefore very very few members of the general populace can offer an educated opinion as to whats really best

heres another BAD MOVE we've made:
we are also wrecking our vehicles currently being forced to use 10% ethanol gasoline in our vehicles, i cant find anywhere in my city that has a 100% gas capability (there was 1 i knew of, it has since shut down)...ethanol infused gas has lower fuel efficiency, not to mention its unusable in marine & "sensitive" engines. I have to use 93 octane in my car, and i really wish that crap wasen't in there

EDIT: I found this for those concerned
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=LA


...that said, I do like this thread, gives some good viewpoints, information/links and whatnot. the worst way to handle energy policy discussions is ignoring them thumb.gif
post #168 of 178
@unnefer, quite a long post that I read 10% of. And strange, my uncle has a Chevy Volt, and whats that?! HE REPLACED THE BATTERIES FOR 8 GRAND AT 29K MILES?! And you know what he did after that? HE SOLD IT. And is leasing a Corvette until the new one comes out.

I find it hilarious you think 8 grand is a worthy price for batteries, considering a hybrid that gets 40mpg, would cost less than 3k for gasoline over 29k miles. And even hybrids aren't worth the extra cost because by the time you get your moneys worth, its been 10+ years.


"It's very important to point out that 99% of US car owners commute less than 60 miles a day and 99% of trips are less than 70 miles a day - both easily supported by the EVs I have listed."

Strange, quick google search shows the Nissan Leaf, and Chevy Volt getting around 45 miles per charge. You must be joking if you think people never go further than that..
You also can't grasp the concept that you can refuel your gas powered vehicle in minutes, but how long does it take to charge an electric vehicle to full capacity.

I also like how you quoted everything to try and change my opinion of prove me wrong yet left out, "That is, unless we get graphene batteries."
I'd also like to add, increased efficiency in solar panels.
Edited by Traphix - 2/25/13 at 5:58am
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post #169 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

@unnefer, quite a long post that I read 10% of.
You wont learn anything if you don't read everything wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

And strange, my uncle has a Chevy Volt, and whats that?! HE REPLACED THE BATTERIES FOR 8 GRAND AT 29K MILES?!
See, now I know you're full of it. Chevy have an 8 year/100,000mile warranty on the battery pack in the Chevy Volt - if there was a problem with them and they needed replacing at 29K miles, then it would have been FREE and covered by WARRANTY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

And you know what he did after that?
Don't really care what he did, because it has nothing to do with a Tesla Model S or any other EV - so off topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

I find it hilarious you think 8 grand is a worthy price for batteries,
To pay $8k after traveling over 100,000 miles for a new battery pack that will again be covered by warranty for and be good for another 100,000 miles is not bad at all. If you had bothered to read all of my earlier post, you would understand that an internal combustion engine in your daily driver would come pretty close to costing you $8k in services, repairs and replacement parts (and or rebuild) after 100,000 miles of driving - so the cost is comparable anyway.

$8K sounds like a lot, when you think of it as a single amount - but lets break it down to something not so scary for you hey.

$8k over $8 years is approx $83 a month, roughly $21 a week - now that isn't that much at all - and I am sure that most would easily spend around $83 a month on their ICE vehicle now wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

considering a hybrid.../B].
Again, not about the Tesla Model S, so don't really care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

Quote:
"It's very important to point out that 99% of US car owners commute less than 60 miles a day and 99% of trips are less than 70 miles a day - both easily supported by the EVs I have listed."
Strange, quick google search shows the Nissan Leaf, and Chevy Volt getting around 45 miles per charge. You must be joking if you think people never go further than that..
Obviously your google skills are just as bad as your reading skills. Did you only check 10% of the search results?

Tesla Model S:
Electric range
85 kW·h
265 mi (426 km) (EPA)
300 mi (480 km) (Tesla Motors)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S

Nissan Leaf:
Range
117 km (73 mi) (EPA)
175 km (109 mi) (NEDC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

Chevy Volt:
Considering it is a plug-in hybrid, you need to include it's full hybrid powered range:
379 miles (610 km) (EPA)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Volt

Ford Focus EV:
Range
76 mi (122 km) (EPA)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_EV

Mitsubishi i-MiEV:
Range
160 km (99 mi) (Japanese cycle)
100 km (62 mi) (US EPA cycle)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV

All cars I mentioned do support the commute of 99% of drivers in the US and all except the I-MiEV can support 99% of daily trips made in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

You also can't grasp the concept that you can refuel your gas powered vehicle in minutes, but how long does it take to charge an electric vehicle to full capacity.
And you can not grasp the fact that you just need to charge overnight every night. get home, plug the car in to charge, relax knowing that when you wake up it will be charged and ready to support the daily commute of 99% of commuters in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

I also like how you quoted everything to try and change my opinion of prove me wrong
I am not here to change your mind - that is up to you. I am simply providing the correct information for other OCN members in reply to your inaccurate comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

yet left out, "That is, unless we get graphene batteries."
I didn't need to comment on it - and although Because there is no such thing as "graphene" batteries", I understood what you meant and felt it was a fair comment, as the use of graphene coating of the cathode in LiFePO4 cells will improve them and improve things for EV vehicles.

And if you read my earlier comments more than 10%, you would have read the part where I said "There are also some trying to improve on the LiFePO4 chemistry using nanotechnology to improve anode and cathode coatings and lower resistance for much better performance." which was actually refering to such things as using graphene coatings on the cathodes wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traphix View Post

I'd also like to add, increased efficiency in solar panels.
? not sure what you are talking about here, and since it's not about the Tesla Model S or in reply to any of my earlier comments, I'll leave it alone.

Nef
Edited by un-nefer - 2/26/13 at 4:47am
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Intel i7 2600K @ 5.1Ghz AsRock Extreme4 Gen3 Palit GTX 680 Jetstream 2GB Palit GTX 680 Jetstream 2GB 
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WD Caviar "Black" 1TB SATAII LG WH14NS40 Blu-ray Burner XSPC Rasa CPU (Acetal) Black RX360 Triple Fan Radiator 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
XSPC DDC Two BayRes BMaverick Laing DDC (MCP350) Windows 7 Ultimate x64 Philips 201B 21" CRT 
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ViewSonic VX922 19" LCD Diamond Digital Black Antec True Power 750w Antec LanBoy Air Red 
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Crimson Basilisk
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel i7 2600K @ 5.1Ghz AsRock Extreme4 Gen3 Palit GTX 680 Jetstream 2GB Palit GTX 680 Jetstream 2GB 
RAMRAMHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill F3-12800CL9D-8GBXL G.Skill F3-12800CL9D-8GBXL Sandisk Extreme 120GB SSD Sandisk Extreme 120GB SSD 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingCooling
WD Caviar "Black" 1TB SATAII LG WH14NS40 Blu-ray Burner XSPC Rasa CPU (Acetal) Black RX360 Triple Fan Radiator 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
XSPC DDC Two BayRes BMaverick Laing DDC (MCP350) Windows 7 Ultimate x64 Philips 201B 21" CRT 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
ViewSonic VX922 19" LCD Diamond Digital Black Antec True Power 750w Antec LanBoy Air Red 
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
Epic Gear Meduza (By GEIL) Steel Series QCK+ XL Asus Xonar DX ROCCAT Kave 5.1 Surround Sound Gaming Headset 
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Sennheiser hd555 
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post #170 of 178
I appreciate a discussion, but please do not resort to name calling just because someone has a different view point to you.
Edited by GingerJohn - 2/25/13 at 9:08am
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i5 2550k P8P67 Pro Sapphire HD 7950 G.Skill RipJaws X 1600 Cas 9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Corsair Force 120 WD Blue 500GB WD Caviar Green 1TB XSPC RayStorm 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
RX240 MCR 220 EK 7950 Copper Acetal  DDC-1T 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 7 64-bit Dell U2311H Oculus Rift DK2 Ducky Shine 3 MX Brown 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Corsair TX 750W CoolerMaster CM690 II G500 Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 
Audio
Asus Xonar DX 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
A10-6800K Gigabyte GA-F2A85XN-WIFI G Skill 1600 CAS9 Kingston SSD Now 60GB 
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Main
(21 items)
 
HTPC
(10 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 2550k P8P67 Pro Sapphire HD 7950 G.Skill RipJaws X 1600 Cas 9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Corsair Force 120 WD Blue 500GB WD Caviar Green 1TB XSPC RayStorm 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
RX240 MCR 220 EK 7950 Copper Acetal  DDC-1T 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 7 64-bit Dell U2311H Oculus Rift DK2 Ducky Shine 3 MX Brown 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Corsair TX 750W CoolerMaster CM690 II G500 Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 
Audio
Asus Xonar DX 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
A10-6800K Gigabyte GA-F2A85XN-WIFI G Skill 1600 CAS9 Kingston SSD Now 60GB 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
WD Caviar Blue 1TB LG Slim Blu-Ray player Silverstone NT06-PRO  Widows 7 Home Premium 
PowerCase
Silverstone Sfx Series ST45SF 450W Silverstone SG05 
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