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[Tesla Motors] New York Times - Test Drive Fail - Page 10

post #91 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by tout View Post

Hybrids would be great if they actually got better gas mileage than a standard car.

uh they do

I had a 2007 Civic NA average 30MPG (combination city and highway)

my dad had a 2003 Hybrid Civic, he averaged 46MPG (city and highway combo)

if 16 MPG is insignificant, then I dont know if you are doing your math right.
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post #92 of 178
EVs are not ready for road trips away from charging stations, just like normal gasoline cars with un-modified fuel tanks cannot just "venture" in the desert, on CNG vehicles go to rural areas with no proper fueling station density for them. That's...not something that needs a paper to report on, thought we knew it!

That said, plz do not compare the model S or any other Tesla with family hybrids or plug-ins for simple payback and life-cycle costs etc by counting cents and mpg...
Compare apples with apples - i.e. the Leaf has a similar target market with the Prius.
The Model S doesn't compete with either the Prius or the Leaf or the Ford Fusion, unless you are talking the handful of hip-wanna-be Hollywood stars that drive hybrids that could get either.
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post #93 of 178
If you took any given hybrid, ripped out the batteries and electric motors, then replaced the ICE with a small turbo 4-banger, you'd have a lighter, cheaper, more reliable, vehicle that had similar or better performance and similar mileage.

Lithium-ion batteries aren't the answer. They are still too heavy and too bulky for their power density, and still don't have the durability or longevity needed to really compete with ICEs. Even in the most optimal of conditions, a Li-ion battery pack isn't going to last more than than 5-10 years, and they aren't cheap to replace.

When a real successor to Li-ion arrives, it's not going to matter much for hybrids, but it may well make pure electric cars viable.
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post #94 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProfiteer View Post

If ITER is successful electric cars are going to become a world staple, Tesla will overshadow all other car manufacturers.

Not only that it does 0-60mph in 4.4 sec. Thats Ferrari class speeds.

Go ITER , God I hope that goes as planned, its going to change the world.

Testing that 0-60 will not get you anywhere near 200 mile range... But it is fun, especially not hearing the motor wind up.

BTW: My 1995 Sportster does 0-60 under 4 seconds... (and yes it has a few modifications) ...and I still get 48 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

The Model S is gorgeous in person, I saw a red one up close in a parking lot not long ago.

I pass a couple of the roadsters on my way to and from work every day. I love the look of them. I have only seen one of the Model S's though and it was at the old NUMMI plant (now Tesla). Nice styling, but I didn't get a chance to sit in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

200 mile range and then charging for 8 hours doesn't seem like a step in the right direction to me. Besides, what is wrong with gasoline exactly?

cough cough choke, cough, nothing a good lung transplant won't cure... Seriously though, this IS a step in the right direction. Sure they have a ways to go, but thay are doing _something_, and are targeting the folks that have money to pay for the technology available now, while investing in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrocutor View Post

I'm glad there is some backlash to false information and negative publicity, especially when it involves companies that are just starting out and trying to establish themselves.


1. Electric cars are the future. The amount of energy lost in friction, heat, etc is so dramatically less than a combustion engine that this should be obvious.

I think they are _part_ of the future of transportation. Not the whole answer, but the money they make off of them is being re-invested in R&D for future power plants.

2. Batteries are a non-concern. Every passing year sees improvements in battery technology in capacitance, charge rate, and life-time. You could also use a small lithium nuclear powered generator (like the ones for in-home use) to fuel it. Eventually, I'd like to see someone discover a way to actually produce electricity (release electrons), but until then we can make do with generating it via glorified steam turbines through coal, nuclear fission, etc. You could also do something such as have the entire car's skin made of solar collecting materials.

The Silicon Valley is investing heavily in battery technology and is even opening a "Battery University".

3. The Model S and the upcoming 4WD Model X are specifically designed to cater to the more wealthy, such as people who would buy a Lexus. Tesla does have plans to release another sedan after the Model X that will cater more to mainstream customers. That said, their lack of manufacturing facilities is still their weakest point: there is an enormous demand for their cars and a very long waiting list in order to buy one.

They are ramping up production as fast as they can. Retooling the NUMMI plant takes millions of dollars and time...

4. The company itself also has the possibility of eventually becoming involved with its sister company, SpaceX. After SpaceX becomes more widely used by corporations and governments, there will eventually become a need to produce electric vehicles able to traverse the surface of the moon and mars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

I just don't see any pressing need to force people onto electric cars when the tech is not ready and there is a viable and ready source and infrastructure for gasoline in place. Current gas engines are very efficient and most perform under ULEV standards which are very low emission. With breakthroughs in oil exploration such as fracking we could be looking at another 100 years+ of oil resources so the utterly fabricated premise that we need to switch to electric vehicles now is sensationalist and stupid. The internal combustion engine has a lot of life left in it...

They are not "forcing" anyone to buy electric cars. They (our government) are providing incentives to purchase one knowing it will help the technology in the long run.

I am not sure that I would promote fracking due to the issues of groundwater contamination and earthquakes some sites are experiencing. Once again, the oil companies are testing production technologies on the population. If they can make sure the extraction methods are not making things worse then go for it. The jury is still out on that though. Deep sea extraction comes with it's own perils, but so does just about any method of oil production. Same with the battery technology. It is still pretty toxic to life as we know it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

Thorium and other methods of fission are plenty safe and plenty efficient despite what the media and oil company backed papers claim.

Tesla isn't a good investment because it's too early. It's survival depends on being a luxury car brand and by some luck of the draw as of right now.
LOL. We know plenty. The methods to getting at this (is it shale they found I forgot that part). The problem is that it is only viable for 100 years like you mention. What does economics dictate about a product with limited quantities? The price must rise for it (though in the US I believe we are subsidized the full costs). The short term maybe be fine but prices are only going to go up and the environmental effects won't change.

I disagree. Tesla is a great investment in the future of electric vehicle technology. I doubt that "luck" has had anything to do with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Yes but 100 years gives other technologies plenty of time to grow and become viable rather than now switching over to a bad and unworkable technology...

Yes, I do agree with most of this, but the only way for that technology to grow and become viable is if people start adopting it's use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester435 View Post

Paving old logging roads is far from advanced.. hahaha! biggrin.gif

I can confirm this, since my neighborhood is an old logging area (and still is in a lot of locations.
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post #95 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyparker1337 View Post

Pretty expensive.

If you consider the fuel costs of a normal car.

95MPG is what the lower 40 kW-h is rated for, when you convert the energy cost over to gasoline.
At $3.20 per gallon of gas in the US, that would be roughly 3¢ per mile in "fuel" costs if it were to use gasoline.
However it doesn't use gasoline and using the current electricity cost in the US of 12¢ per kWh and the fact that this car gets 100miles per 35kWh...
Then this car actually costs 4¢ per mile to drive, or $1 per 25miles.

47MPG is what the 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid gets.
So at $3.20 per gallon of gas in US, that would be roughly 7¢ per mile, or $1.75 per 25miles.
This car costs $27,200.

The 2013 Ford Focus costs $16,200 and gets roughly 32MPG.
At the same $3.20 per gallon of gas, that would be roughly 10¢ per mile, or $2.5 per 25miles.

2013 Tesla Model S = $59,900 (Base Line)
2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid -= +$32,700 than Tesla and 3¢ fuel difference.
2013 Ford Focus = +$43,700 than Tesla and 6¢ fuel difference.

For the Fusion, it would take roughly 1,090,000 miles to to cost the same as the Tesla.
For the Focus, it would take roughly 728,333 miles to cost the same as the Tesla.

Let's say that all the cars last roughly 200,000 miles and requires no maintenance.
The total cost of the Model S is $67,900.
The total cost of the Fusion is $41,200.
The total cost of the Focus is $36,200.

So while the car is technically super efficient on "fuel", costing only 4¢ per mile
(which is 75% more efficient than the Fusion, and 150% more efficient than the Focus),

the actual base cost of the car sends it skyrocketing out of total efficiency
(being 40% less efficient than the Fusion and 47% less efficient than the Focus).

I conclude that base price and quality of parts is much more important than fuel efficiency.

Your math is off. The Ford Fusion Hybrid is only rated at 47/47/47. It doesn't actually get that in real life use. Especially in areas like where I live and my commute. 50 miles each way and all highway over 70 mph. The two ICE vehicles you mentioned drop a lot in terms of mileage. Then again the S drops too. Reason like this are why I have yet to bother with a high MPG car. My Grand Prix GTP would get over 25 MPG going around 78 mph. It's also about the same size as the Fusion with only about 300 lbs weight difference which is minor when the lighter one is over 3,300 lbs.

Tesla's blog puts the S 85 kwh at about 220 miles on the 85 kWh battery. That's about 2.59 miles per kWh or $0.046 per mile in energy costs at $0.12 per kWh. My old car costs about $0.128 per mile at $3.20 per gallon. The Fusion Hybrid gets around 37 mpg at 70+ MPH based on what I've seen from owners so about $0.086 per mile at $3.20 per gallon. Both the Fusion and the S drop in price per mile in the city. My car doesn't, but my car also cost me less than $5k years ago and goes a good deal faster than the Hybrid. BTW, when my car was in better shape it was getting closer to 29 MPG so about $0.11 per mile. Having over 200,000 miles isn't helping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

I don't think that electric cars are YET the answer. There are way too many issues with batteries, charging times, warranties, lack of recharging stations, not to mention the simple fact of the matter that in the US, the vast majority of electricity is produced from fossil burning fuels (mainly coal).

Now, maybe in another 20 years, when battery technology matures even more, if this country would build another 400 nuclear reactors to replace the majority of coal fired plants, and after several hundred billion dollars worth of recharging station building, THEN electric cars will make sense.

But having said all that ...

I find the most shocking (ok, so I really don't, given the New York Times bias and unprofessional "journalism") is just how messed up the New York Times writer flat out LIED about his experience.

This article was about Tela though. Their batteries charge fairly fast and have great battery warranties. The 85 kWh ones are 8 years unlimited miles. The method of producing electricity is more of a location thing. Coal has been getting cleaner and has also dropped in usage per capita by just over 22% since 1999 in 2011. In that period for generating electricity per capita in the USA oil dropped 77%, solar increased 333%, and wind increased 2393% (not a typo).

Speaking of cleaner coal. We are still getting even cleaner.
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post #96 of 178
I actually believe Top Gear got something right when they said the Honda Clarity is the future of motoring. Once hydrogen fuel cells become much cheaper to produce and the hydrogen infrastructure gets built. It is a MUCH better solution than electric cars will ever be.
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post #97 of 178
When Hybrids/all electric cars get to a point where they cost no more than average entry-level cars ($12k-25k range) with their high efficiency above 40 MPG, then they'd be worth it. If you do the math right now, by the time you make up for the higher purchase price in gas savings, you'll need new batteries that are a lot more expensive than what you've saved in gas. Granted, the concept of hybrid/all electric cars is not all about the end consumer's pocket savings; it's also about the environment.
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post #98 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

When Hybrids/all electric cars get to a point where they cost no more than average entry-level cars ($12k-25k range) with their high efficiency above 40 MPG, then they'd be worth it. If you do the math right now, by the time you make up for the higher purchase price in gas savings, you'll need new batteries that are a lot more expensive than what you've saved in gas. Granted, the concept of hybrid/all electric cars is not all about the end consumer's pocket savings; it's also about the environment.

Again dependent on where you live. I pay about half if not more per kwh than most. In my case (and others like Iceland) EV's are worth it.
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post #99 of 178
Just so people know, Tesla Motors has been going after people who gave their car bad reviews, they sued Top gear for their review of the car.

http://www.reddit.com/r/TopGear/comments/18jha3/top_gears_response_to_teslas_accusations_from/

Its just a bad car, pure electric powered cars arent ready they dont have the range or enough charging locations and Tesla isn't ready to admit it.
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post #100 of 178
This is a project that started almost a year ago (March 2012).

Public charging stations in MTL


Not bad for one year.
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Synthetic Anatomy
(14 items)
 
NAT-inator
(11 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i7 2700K Z68X-UD7-B3 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 580 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 580 
GraphicsRAMRAMRAM
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 580 Corsair  Corsair  Corsair  
RAMHard DriveCoolingPower
Corsair  2x Mushkin 240Gb SSD Raid 0  A lot. ST1500 
CaseAudio
FT02 Xonar ST 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-2500K P8P67 WS Revolution Sparkle Calibre GTX 560 G.Skill 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Corsair Force SSD WD Caviar Black BD combo Liquid 
OSPowerCase
Win 7 Ultimate AX650 500R 
  hide details  
Reply
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