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[Various] GTX TITAN Previews - Page 75  

post #741 of 1636
And on another note if Titan Sli turns out to overclock crazy high as rumored and performs on par to quad-sli 680/7970. The only quad setup that will compare is (4) sapphire 7970 6gb. At 600 a card that's 2400. 400 over Titan. If Titan sli only compares to lets say tri-fire 7970's then I'll pass. The 6gb of vram isn't worth the extra 600 in price increase.
 
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post #742 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

Usario gets it. thumb.gif

The problem is that a standard is going to be set with Titan. AMD will eventually create a single-GPU that will dethrone Titan. There is no doubt about that. The problem is that if nvidia is selling the Titan at $1k and selling it successfully at that price point, what company in their right mind would sell a flagship video card at $500 when they can sell it for $1000 and sell their mid-range for $500?

The precedent is being set with the Titan. That's the issue. It's not a status symbol; it's a rip-off.

Why wasn't the precedent set with the 8800 Ultra? Or the 280? Or the 590? Just because a specialty card gets priced high now does not mean they will forever be priced higher and higher. The market still decides prices. Neither Nvidia nor AMD will ever be able to price mainstream cards like this because the mainstream won't buy them. It's obvious when looking at Steam numbers for instance that the majority of card buyers spend around $250 on video cards and the manufacturers will always have to spend the bulk of their R&D on that group. Having a high priced card at the very end of the spectrum where you only expect to sell a small number of units doesn't affect that core mainstream market at all....
post #743 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlocke View Post

No one buying Titan (or a flagship CPU for that matter) cares about price/performance. Something some people can't seem to grasp... Why does price/performance ratio keep coming up in these threads?

How about we wait for some real overclocked to overclocked benchmarks to see if it's really a bad price/performance ratio? If it's 44% faster than a 680 at stock (going by the official NVIDIA leak), I see it being upwards of 70% faster when comparing overclocked to overclocked because it has voltage control. That puts it roughly barely slower than a 690 with considerably less heat, power draw.. while also ensuring the is no microstuttering or SLI related driver issues. The official NVIDIA benchmark that was posted on the official NVIDIA site, then taken down, shows a single titan at stock beating a stock 690 in 3dmark Vantage. If that's true, then performance/price is not nearly as bad as some people are making it.

Remember, it has been a very long time since a single GPU card has surpassed dual GPU configs of the previous generation. If an overclocked titan can beat a 690, it's $1000 price tag is extremely justified in my opinion. If you want the standard 25% performance increase over the previous generation, then wait for the 780... which will probably be about $500.

Because it sets a precedent. Something people can't seem to grasp.

We have no idea about overclocks yet. A 1.2GHz overclock suddenly isn't as impressive when you find out the card boosts to 975MHz out of the box.

That same benchmark shows the 690 being less than 20% faster than the 680; talk about irrelevant.

All evidence we have points to that NOT happening.

The 780 won't be around $500 if the 8970 beats it to market at $800. Precedents are a dangerous thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Why wasn't the precedent set with the 8800 Ultra? Or the 280? Or the 590? Just because a specialty card gets priced high now does not mean they will forever be priced higher and higher. The market still decides prices. Neither Nvidia nor AMD will ever be able to price mainstream cards like this because the mainstream won't buy them. It's obvious when looking at Steam numbers for instance that the majority of card buyers spend around $250 on video cards and the manufacturers will always have to spend the bulk of their R&D on that group. Having a high priced card at the very end of the spectrum where you only expect to sell a small number of units doesn't affect that core mainstream market at all....

8800 Ultra: poor response from consumers, little actual difference compared to the much cheaper GTX
280: got massively undercut by AMD a couple weeks later
590: dual-GPU

It would stagnate growth in the mainstream.
Edited by Usario - 2/19/13 at 10:29pm
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post #744 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlocke View Post

No one buying Titan (or a flagship CPU for that matter) cares about price/performance. Something some people can't seem to grasp... Why does price/performance ratio keep coming up in these threads?

How about we wait for some real overclocked to overclocked benchmarks to see if it's really a bad price/performance ratio? If it's 44% faster than a 680 at stock (going by the official NVIDIA leak), I see it being upwards of 70% faster when comparing overclocked to overclocked because it has voltage control. That puts it barely slower than a 690 with considerably less heat, power draw.. while also ensuring the is no microstuttering or SLI related driver issues. The official NVIDIA performance chart that was posted on the official NVIDIA site, then taken down, shows a single titan at stock beating a stock 690 in 3dmark Vantage. If that's true, then performance/price is not nearly as bad as some people are making it.

Remember, it has been a very long time since a single GPU card has surpassed dual GPU configs of the previous generation. If an overclocked titan can beat a 690, it's $1000 price tag is extremely justified in my opinion. If you want the standard 25% performance increase over the previous generation, then wait for the 780... which will probably be about $500.

Performance will have to go up but price has to stay the same. The next best thing has always to have best price/performance. For example GTX480 @ $500 has better price/performance then GTX285 @ $500. This card is 1 year after GTX680 and extra 2 months of HD 7970. That is more then enough time to increase performance for price not decrease it.
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post #745 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Why do we have our rigs listed in our sigs? Why do we post our benchmark numbers in the forum? Why do we drool over guys like Vega who build crazy laboratory machines just to run 3dmark11. You're darn right video cards are status symbols just in the same way as turbo kits are to car guys. Let's not pretend as though we don't care what other computer hobbyists think of our rigs shall we... rolleyes.gif

I use my rig to play games. Not sure about you... rolleyes.gif

Let me rephrase this: I'm not snubbing those that spend money on high-end components. Intel has been pricing their flagship CPU's at $1000 for a while now. The thing is that Intel consistently releases an incredible gaming chip at around $200 each year or two. That makes the $1000 CPU ok because most people will buy the $200 CPU and be completely happy that they're getting 80% of the performance for 20% of the price.


Now, Nvidia on the other hand has a card called the GTX 690, which by itself is a great card. It's fast, energy efficient, and it looks very cool. It's twice as expensive as nvidia's GTx 680, and rightfully so; the GTX 690 uses two GTX 680 chips. However, in terms of gaming, once you get below the GTX 670, a $400 card, there starts to be pretty significant compromises in the lineup. The GTX 660 Ti is a perfect example of this with its limited memory bus which hurts AA performance.

So why in the world is a card called the Titan, which offers roughly 30-60% more performance than a GTX 680, priced at the same level as a GTX 690? I mean, my head is exploding here thinking about it. Every ounce of sense in my brain is telling me that the Titan should be priced between $800-900 in order not to gouge the existing GTX 690. Yet, the Titan is priced exactly the same as the 690.

I mean, you can argue that graphics cards and rigs are a status symbol all day long, but the fact is, I use my rig to play games. I'm proud of my rig, for sure, but I do not consider it a status symbol. At the end of the day, only one fact remains: Nvidia is gouging their customer base by releasing this card at $1000. You can call it status, you can call it business, you can even call it awesome... It's still a rip-off and a dangerous proposition for the entire market.
Edited by Mad Pistol - 2/19/13 at 10:31pm
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post #746 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

We'll see how it does as a workstation card once the actual benchmark numbers are posted. Until then: fair enough, we'll see if anyone actually buys it for a workstation.

I will be getting one as a workstation card for my system once a good waterblock is made for it and there is an enhanced version of it from eVGA, Asus or other. It looks like a good choice for those wanting more Compute but don't want to spend $3,500 on a Tesla card. Hopefully, the benchmarks will show it as in the middle, but I know it will be crippled some or else there would be no reason to spend that much on the Tesla version. Can't wait to find out though.
post #747 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

Performance will have to go up but price has to stay the same. The next best thing has always to have best price/performance. For example GTX480 @ $500 has better price/performance then GTX285 @ $500. This card is 1 year after GTX680 and extra 2 months of HD 7970. That is more then enough time to increase performance for price not decrease it.

Don't get me wrong... I totally agree with what your saying, your paying about the same price/performance as a year ago... but it's not as awful as some people make it out to be. Everyone is comparing a single GPU to a dual GPU. That is a very important factor... If Titan can beat a 690, or even match it, that is incredibly impressive. A single GPU beating a dual GPU of the previous generation hasn't happened in a long time. Comparing to the 8800 Ultra, this thing is a steal. That card was outrageously priced and not even that much faster.

I feel if they released a 3GB Titan at ~$800 people would be more happy about price/performance ratio. Titan's price has a lot to do with the massive amount of VRAM (that is mostly unneeded in current games).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Why wasn't the precedent set with the 8800 Ultra?

Yup.. I don't see it being a trend every generation. Every 3 years or so they release a Single GPU card at a higher price point. The 8800 Ultra was a huge rip off, and people still bought it. Titan is an incredible deal in comparison. Wasn't it like $350 more for 8-12% faster?
Edited by Murlocke - 2/19/13 at 10:35pm
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post #748 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

I use my rig to play games. Not sure about you... rolleyes.gif

Let me rephrase this: I'm not snubbing those that spend money on high-end components. Intel has been pricing their flagship CPU's at $1000 for a while now. The thing is that Intel consistently releases an incredible gaming chip at around $200 each year or two. That makes the $1000 CPU ok because most people will buy the $200 CPU and be completely happy that they're getting 80% of the performance for 20% of the price.


Now, Nvidia on the other hand has a card called the GTX 690, which by itself is a great card. It's fast, energy efficient, and it looks very cool. It's twice as expensive as nvidia's GTx 680, and rightfully so; the GTX 690 uses two GTX 680 chips. However, in terms of gaming, once you get below the GTX 670, a $400 card, there starts to be pretty significant compromises in the lineup. The GTX 660 Ti is a perfect example of this with its limited memory bus which hurts AA performance.

So why in the world is a card called the Titan, which offers roughly 30-60% more performance than a GTX 680, priced at the same level as a GTX 690? I mean, my head is exploding here thinking about it. Every ounce of sense in my brain is telling me that the Titan should be priced between $800-900 in order not to gouge the existing GTX 690. Yet, the Titan is priced exactly the same as the 690.

I mean, you can argue that graphics cards and rigs are a status symbol all day long, but the fact is, I use my rig to play games. I'm proud of my rig, for sure, but I do not consider it a status symbol.

There are lots of problems with your post, most notably the fact that you are assuming Titan performance without any proof yet. What if OC'd Titan beats a 690? What if SLI Titans beat quadfire 7970's? You also assume that what you do with your computer is what everybody else does with theirs. Not so. I barely play many games but I bench all the time and judging by the benchmark section, so do a lot of others here. Benching is like racing for computers and racers are always very interested in what kit the competition has. Period. Get off your high horse for a little while will ya?
post #749 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Why wasn't the precedent set with the 8800 Ultra? Or the 280? Or the 590? Just because a specialty card gets priced high now does not mean they will forever be priced higher and higher. The market still decides prices. Neither Nvidia nor AMD will ever be able to price mainstream cards like this because the mainstream won't buy them. It's obvious when looking at Steam numbers for instance that the majority of card buyers spend around $250 on video cards and the manufacturers will always have to spend the bulk of their R&D on that group. Having a high priced card at the very end of the spectrum where you only expect to sell a small number of units doesn't affect that core mainstream market at all....

8800 Ultra was $800
8800 GTX was $600

Those where times when Nvidia could do that lol and it was not like Ultra had any relevance to push prices up because it does not have the performance advantage as Titan

Even so Nvidia though it was OK to charge $650 for GTX280 until AMD came along.

Things like 8800 Ultra and Titan is what increase the upper limit.
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OCZ Agility 3 60GB WD Caviar Green 1.5TB 2 x Seagate Barracuda 2TB XSPC Raystorm 
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post #750 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

There are lots of problems with your post, most notably the fact that you are assuming Titan performance without any proof yet. What if OC'd Titan beats a 690? What if SLI Titans beat quadfire 7970's? You also assume that what you do with your computer is what everybody else does with theirs. Not so. I barely play many games but I bench all the time and judging by the benchmark section, so do a lot of others here. Benching is like racing for computers and racers are always very interested in what kit the competition has. Period. Get off your high horse for a little while will ya?

Eat your words buddy. It goes both ways. thumb.gif

The only problem right now is that people will be willingly buying this card for $1000. It's not worth $1000... not even close. $800? Possibly. Not $1000 though.
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Everest - Intel
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Seagate 3TB, WD 500GB HDD, WD 640GB HD Samsung 850 EVO 512GB Samsung DVD-Burner Corsair H110 w/ Dual Aerocool DS 140mm fans 
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Windows 10 Pro Dell S2716DG (1440p, 144hz Gsync) AOC U3477 PQU (3440x1440 IPS) Logitech G810 Orion Spectrum 
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Evga SuperNOVA 750 G2 NZXT Phantom 530 Black Logitech G502 Proteus Core Corsair MM400 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Various] GTX TITAN Previews