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post #891 of 1636
But not all cards were launched at the beginning. But I agree between the HD7970 and the GTX680 you have a good point.

Odd really why reviewers don't repeat the tests after drivers have matured.

Same with games. Some games are great after a few updates but will live with the bad reviewscore.
 
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post #892 of 1636
So is anything expected today or is it just Thursday when reviews hit?
post #893 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

*snip*
Wow redface.gif looks like someone did their Homework lol. Great post thumb.gif
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post #894 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hukkel View Post

But not all cards were launched at the beginning. But I agree between the HD7970 and the GTX680 you have a good point.

Odd really why reviewers don't repeat the tests after drivers have matured.

Same with games. Some games are great after a few updates but will live with the bad reviewscore.

I know but the thing is as I said, for the general consumer (in this case general might be a bad word, say the normal PC gamer who can upgrade their PC if they need to but doesn't care that much about the details an just wants to play his/her games well) first impressions are everything. I know it's sad that some things are labeled as bad because they were worse near launch but that's just the way the industry works.

Now take the 4800 series AMD cards for example. Those things released at very good performance at very good prices. Awesome first impressions, and they're still one of the most popular AMD cards you see in the builds of normal gamers and in the steam survey iirc.

The 7000 series cards have been reviewed again and again with proper drivers and so on but it doesn't matter to anyone but the enthusiast unfortunately.
 
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post #895 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Okay guys here's the deal:

Nvidia actually wants to price their big dies (500mm^2+) higher than $500. This is because they're very expensive, have a lot of R&D money put into them and have low yields.

What made the 480 and 580 cost $500 then? Competition.

Let's look at the circumstances at the launch of the past pew NV flagships:

GTX 280: Huge die, priced at $650 with basic high end GPU features, has to drop in price very soon because of AMD releasing a GTX 260 matching 4870 for ~$300. NV has to stay competitive and was relying on their high end GPU for the mainstream stuff as well, they have to lower the price in order to sell it because G92 isn't cutting it anymore.

GTX 285: Same story but without the initial high price because of AMD already having their cards out. Only shrinking the process and a bit higher OCs and better thermals aren't enough to price it much above the then discounted 280. NV is still using G92 for their lower end parts and has to still manage some of the mainstream ($300 range) with the expensive GT200b. GT200b did though save them from making a nearly 600mm^2 die for mainstream cards which is probably the reason for why it was even die shrinked. The price can't go higher because of AMD's 4890.

GTX 480: Again a massive die, card is massively late, hogs more power than ever seen before (single GPU) and has lots of bad publicity even before launch. The performance barely warrants the $500 price compared to the $400 5870. NV tries to market the card with more VRAM, CUDA, PhysX etc. They also have to use the die for 470s and 465s again making it a mainstream chip as well. This isn't a choice, it's a must for them because of AMD's product range. The smaller GF104 appears much later and is no match for AMD's products and can't be used to counter high end products.

GTX 580: NV is unaware of what AMD might release after seeing the 5870 matching 6870 (well almost). The 580 provides 10% increase over the older 480 while actually decreasing the die just a tad, improving thermals etc. They can't price it much higher than their own card because the 400 series wasn't even selling well and the 5870 had been discounted to around $370. a $500 price is set as a counter to possible future AMD GPUs, however the 6970 that was originally planned as a $500 card (leaks showing listings from different etailers etc. showed this) barely matches the 480 and can't compete with the 580, AMD has to price the card similarly to the discounted 5870.

At this point NV saw how important the GF104, GF114, GK104 die was due to the huge volume of sales they produced. A decision is made to give the mainstream chip more attention so it will be on the market sooner.

GTX 680: This time NV already knows the performance of the 7970 which has launched at an expensive $550. Multiple leaks originating from before 7970 era launch plans of NV (drivers, early cooler images etc) show GK104 being introduced as GTX670Ti due to NV thinking it can't match a single 7970. After seeing how AMD's new card performs and where it is priced though NV can bump the name of GK104 up to GTX 680 and grab a big portion of the high end GPU market by releasing it at $500. GK100 is either failed or too expensive to use for anything at this point. Being able to compete with a smaller die, GK104, is a huge plus for NV who have achieved a much bigger jump in performance than AMD (per mm^2), the biggest jump since G80 in fact. Added plus is the GK104 memory controller that blows even NV engineers away and makes it possible for the GK104 to function as a high end GPU even in situations that might need high bandwidth. After this AMD launches a price war, bundle war, renaming war and a driver war to make their lineup more lucrative but the damage has already been done and the 600 series has very good rep outside the enthusiast scene.

GTX Titan: GK110 is expensive to produce, supercomputer firms, universities, etc. are screaming for GK110 based teslas which NV provides as soon as they have tens of thousands of GK110s that have low enough leakage and enough working SMXs. K20s are being sold in late september before the launch of the official cards. One of the customers is the Titan supercomputer, needing around 16,000 units.
As usual NV intends to sell the more leaky chips as GeForce ones as has been speculated for well over half a year. Nvidia has a card that can without any trouble beat a 680 and a 7970, the performance difference is much bigger than anything we've seen before, high enough that the card doesn't have any competition at all in the single GPU arena, even less so than the 580. On top of this the card is also almost 100% sure to not have any single GPU competition in the next year or even after that because of AMD and NV being stuck on the 28nm process. Nvidia has also been catching flak for bad compute features lately.
Nvidia doesn't need this expensive chip to compete with AMD and thus has no intentions of releasing it as a normal card part of their normal naming scheme and lineup. That task is reserved for GK114 most likely. However the performance doesn't quite warrant the price of a halo-card-esque pricing of the 690. A decision is made to still release GK110 as Titan for $999 but to load the card with features to make up for the performance that isn't quite up there with the 690. The cooler is similar, users will have full overclocking abilities, etc. And on top of this DP performance is left untouched making the card lucrative for individuals who wish to do GPGPU work but unattractive for big companies. The card is also a huge marketing tool which shows when looking at the emphasis on thermals and OEM systems like those of Origin PC's maingear's etc. The card will enhance NV's brand by setting all the records and being the best. A high price will only reinforce this effect even if it might be bad for the average consumer.
Titan is a product of no competition in the same performance range at all aside from multi GPU setups which don't really matter due to Titan being able to do 4-way SLI, taking less space, being quieter, having the ability to be installed in SFF builds etc.


Pricing has everything to do with the competition. Everything.

So no, your $500 high end GPU isn't going anywhere. If AMD releases the 8970 or the 9970 as powerful enough to make using GK114 or GM104 impossible, NV will be forced to use GK110 or GM100 for normal GPUs. And unless AMD pulls a miracle out of their ass (something like the next version of pitcairn/smaller level chips performing on the level or above NV GK114/GM104) they can't price their cards higher either.

The only thing that allows TItan to be priced at $999 is the huge jump in performance made with kepler. If the manufacturers want to keep raising prices they have to be able to make lower end chips handily outperform previous high end chips. This might have happened once or twice but it is not by any definition the norm and in normal circumstances a price hike of the extreme high end products isn't possible. Due to the huge advances made with kepler NV is most likely going to struggle with Maxwell when trying to maintain similar advances in performance of their chips (they hit the jackpot once, now a new architecture that is better than an incredible one is very hard to do). The jump will most likely be smaller forcing the price of the top of the line chip down. This is of course assuming that AMD keeps putting out GPUs at a steady pace.

man this post deserves a rep. thumb.gif ocn please change rules for mods to receive rep. smile.gif
Edited by raghu78 - 2/20/13 at 3:48am
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post #896 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I know but the thing is as I said, for the general consumer (in this case general might be a bad word, say the normal PC gamer who can upgrade their PC if they need to but doesn't care that much about the details an just wants to play his/her games well) first impressions are everything. I know it's sad that some things are labeled as bad because they were worse near launch but that's just the way the industry works.

Now take the 4800 series AMD cards for example. Those things released at very good performance at very good prices. Awesome first impressions, and they're still one of the most popular AMD cards you see in the builds of normal gamers and in the steam survey iirc.

The 7000 series cards have been reviewed again and again with proper drivers and so on but it doesn't matter to anyone but the enthusiast unfortunately.

Which is still sad for AMD then. They have the betetr performing cards for the same money or lower money and still cannot win.
 
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post #897 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post

man this post deserves a rep. thumb.gif ocn please changes rules for mods to receive rep. smile.gif

Please don't lol, I became a mod back when I had around 4000 posts and I really don't have much rep, with my nearly 8K posts it would just look disproportional tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hukkel View Post

Which is still sad for AMD then. They have the betetr performing cards for the same money or lower money and still cannot win.

Same was true for the 400 series NV cards though. They came out late, overhyped and performing under expectations. They were still the best performers and after a few driver updates the performance gap was actually quite big, big enough that the 470 clearly beat a 5870. They were still laughed at and thought of as bad cards because of the initial reviews.
 
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post #898 of 1636
its all hersey. its all hype. as long as people pay into the high prices, they will make it and profit. until people stand up and say :hey hang on a sec this is insane", things will continue to climb.

this end of overclocking ect has the mojority of people running 1-2 gpu's. which these people i do not see spending $2000 to go sli. i see them purchasing the older models like the 670 and so on once the price drops and staying behind things a little on what they can afford. and i will be in this boat. no way on this planet i will try and redo my tri-sli setup with $3000 in graphics cards. i have $2000 into the cards i have now. ill just buy a 4th card and be set for years to come.

until they start making things that can utalize the progression of these new techs im staying where i am. im not competing in benchmarks to the point where i need to spend that much money on new equipment when the stuff i have now works perfectly for everything i do with it. games, video ect.

people need to recognize these prices are getting stupid insane. i dont care WHAT tech is in that card. no way is it worth $1000 per card.
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post #899 of 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hukkel View Post

Which is still sad for AMD then. They have the betetr performing cards for the same money or lower money and still cannot win.

Hard to feel sad when it's all their own doing.

Whatever optimizations were done to 12.11 drivers, if they were done two months after release, what would the discrete gpu scene look like today?

It's not hard to figure out. AMD would be occupying Nvidia's price points and all this price/performance nonsense wouldn't mean squat.

One thing that some amd owners like to forget when they talk about price/performance vs Nvidia is that is it weren't for Nvidia, they'd have nothing to talk about. Nvidia is the one forcing Amd into the lower price range. Without Nvidia, we'd have $500 7970 and $600 7970 ghz.
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post #900 of 1636
Competition is the game!
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 3930k @4.4ghz@1.44v Asrock X79 Fataility Champion 3xInno3d GTX 780 with Full Nickel EK Waterblocks Gskill RipjawsX 4x4GB@2400mhz 11-11-11-31 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorKeyboard
2xSamsung 830 256gb Custom H2O - 3x XSPC RX360 with EK Blocks Surround Gaming 3x1440@96hz (X-Star) Cooler Master Trigger Red Caps 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Seasonic 1250 watt Danger Den Double Wide 21 Roccat Kone+ Creative ZX (Incoming) 
Audio
Roccat Kave 5.1 Headphones 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
4930k Asus Extreme Black Edition Sapphire R9 290x Sapphire R9 290x 
GraphicsGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Sapphire R9 290x Sapphire R9 290x Gskil TridentX 2400mhz Samsung 830 256GB 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 840 500GB EK Supramacy 4x EK Blocks 6x EK XTX480 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
EK XT360 Windows 8.1 BenQ 3201 32in 4k IPS Qnix 32in 1440 MVA 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Qnix 32in 1440 MVA Coolermaster Storm Trigger 2x Seasonic 1250watt Case Labs TH10 
MouseAudioAudio
Roccat Kone Creative ZX AKG K7XX 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Various] GTX TITAN Previews