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When to code Javascript yourself or use jquery? - Page 2

post #11 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by stupid View Post

With that logic, just dump your OS and write everything in assembly.

That's... not... quite... what I said...
The dude wants to learn. You don't learn much if you just copy/paste other people's code. Or at least you don't learn the right things anyway. When developers learn to be dependent on third party libraries, that's where big, ugly, bloated, poor-performing apps come from. I'm not saying anything bad about jQuery, I'm speaking generally here.

Let me sum it up differently:
First learn how to do it yourself. Then you'll be smart enough to know when to use helper libraries, and when not to.

It's the whole 'give a man a fish' vs 'teach a man to fish' philosophy...
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post #12 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

That's... not... quite... what I said...
The dude wants to learn. You don't learn much if you just copy/paste other people's code. Or at least you don't learn the right things anyway. When developers learn to be dependent on third party libraries, that's where big, ugly, bloated, poor-performing apps come from. I'm not saying anything bad about jQuery, I'm speaking generally here.

Let me sum it up differently:
First learn how to do it yourself. Then you'll be smart enough to know when to use helper libraries, and when not to.

It's the whole 'give a man a fish' vs 'teach a man to fish' philosophy...

I'm inclined to agree with you.

While I'm fully in favour of copy and pasting code, I do think it makes a lot of sense to do the basics without jQuery first. Then as sites evolve and become more complex, port it over to jQuery. That way you understand the foundations and will be in a better position to understand what's going wrong when jQuery misbehaves.
post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

While I'm fully in favour of copy and pasting code

A few lines here and there is fine of course, we all do that.
What I meant by that, is that it's not okay to copy/paste big chunks of code if you don't fully understand what it does. If you would not be able to produce the same thing on your own, then you have no right to use it.

I had some pretty strict programming teachers back in university. They would not accept any assignment that had any third party libraries in it. I used to do that, I would find some free libraries online with some really cool looking controls I wanted to use, or themes or whatever. But if I had handed anything in with those included, I would have been marked zero. They said "how do you know there's not any malicious code hiding in there?". But I think they just used that as an excuse. They wanted me to learn, not take shortcuts. And it worked, I figured out how to do most of the same things on my own. And the compiled size of my program was less than half of what it was when it had the extra libraries included.
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post #14 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

If you would not be able to produce the same thing on your own, then you have no right to use it.
Well no, that's just dumb. I cannot program an OS yet I'm more than happy calling POSIX or Win32 headers. At some point you have to trust other developers.

I just think you're right about learning the basics of a language before been spoon-fed with all-singing and all-dancing frameworks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

I had some pretty strict programming teachers back in university. They would not accept any assignment that had any third party libraries in it. I used to do that, I would find some free libraries online with some really cool looking controls I wanted to use, or themes or whatever. But if I had handed anything in with those included, I would have been marked zero. They said "how do you know there's not any malicious code hiding in there?". But I think they just used that as an excuse. They wanted me to learn, not take shortcuts. And it worked, I figured out how to do most of the same things on my own. And the compiled size of my program was less than half of what it was when it had the extra libraries included.

The size thing is worth noting; particularly given the context of web development. It's the main reason I don't use jQuery myself. (though another part of it is I like to know how everything works).

I'm going to ignore the malicious code comment though because you don't need to borrow libraries to have malicious code inserted into your projects.
post #15 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

That's... not... quite... what I said...
The dude wants to learn. You don't learn much if you just copy/paste other people's code. Or at least you don't learn the right things anyway. When developers learn to be dependent on third party libraries, that's where big, ugly, bloated, poor-performing apps come from. I'm not saying anything bad about jQuery, I'm speaking generally here.

Let me sum it up differently:
First learn how to do it yourself. Then you'll be smart enough to know when to use helper libraries, and when not to.

It's the whole 'give a man a fish' vs 'teach a man to fish' philosophy...
When you're writing programs and doing all the stuff yourself, the next person that have to maintain your code will probably have a bad time if you didn't use a framework. I mean, as a Java developer I never wrote an application for business that doesn't use a framework. A framework like the Spring framework is something I use all the time... you won't see me writing my own MVC framework, or a framework to do dependency injection.
There are a lot of things in the Spring framework I'm not able to write.

You of course need the basics, but if you read most development job requirements, next to the basics there is also a gigantic list of frameworks you need to know before you can apply to that job. jQuery is a pretty popular, well known framework that is on some of those lists, so it doesn't hurt to know jQuery. Doest it mean you need to know how to write it yourself in JavaScript, not at all.
Maybe it is still possible to do that for a framework like jQuery, but if you start with enterprise JavaScript frameworks like Dojo, it will be a lot harder.

Development is really evolving from a phase where every developer could write frameworks by themself to a phase where frameworks are more important to increase maintainablity, readability, ... . When having that view on the IT world, it's logical that not all new developers know how to write frameworks by themself.

A decade ago I would probably have agreed with your post, but IT has evolved since then and so did the frameworks.
post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by g00glen00b View Post

When you're writing programs and doing all the stuff yourself, the next person that have to maintain your code will probably have a bad time if you didn't use a framework. I mean, as a Java developer I never wrote an application for business that doesn't use a framework. A framework like the Spring framework is something I use all the time... you won't see me writing my own MVC framework, or a framework to do dependency injection.
There are a lot of things in the Spring framework I'm not able to write.

Well I'm certainly not saying that frameworks should never be used. There are plenty of circumstances that more than justify their use. Above a certain scale then they almost become mandatory as you say. But I'm sure you could write it yourself if you REALLY wanted to. thumb.gif
Most of my work is on smaller scale, and I usually own all my own code. In this situation there's less of a case to support using frameworks.
Quote:
Development is really evolving from a phase where every developer could write frameworks by themself to a phase where frameworks are more important to increase maintainablity, readability, ... . When having that view on the IT world, it's logical that not all new developers know how to write frameworks by themself.

Again, I'm not saying they should never be used. Just that there is right time and place to use them, and that would certainly qualify. My school of thought probably is a little bit old-school, cause I am! But all I was trying to say in the first place is that new developers should not use those tools while they are learning, because then they become dependent on them. You should be at a certain level of development experience before you work on anything of such complexity that necessitates their use.
Edited by wedge - 2/27/13 at 6:43pm
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