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[PCPer] Frame Rating Part 3: First Results - Page 5

post #41 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by airisom2 View Post

First, they did a 660Ti vs 7950 boost review. People blew up on it, and some were saying they were biased, so they did an actual video recording it. TR, by any means, does not use high speed video to measure frame-time latency in their reviews. That time was just a case of, "If you don't believe us, then see it for yourself." Think of it as a compliment to the original review.

I should have rephrased my original statement. no one has used a slow mo cam to review a card anything of the sort, I just know what will come of this once frame timings start to become used by everyone.
     
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post #42 of 294
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phill1978 View Post

and how many people instantly think IPS is better when TN and VA have progressed really far also? you get clouding on IPS, often hideous backlight glow and this effects low light scenes in games. to top it off the pixel response gives you a nice smudge on movement.

in fact this is relevant to the discussion because if you factor in response time & input lag then your average IPS will be worse for gaming vs 120hz or even 60-70hz TN or VA panel.

for static images and movies IPS is better but for most types of fast gaming they are not even though people will claim they dont see smearing on IPS panels its exactly the same argument when people dont see frame latency!

all of this is about the individuals perception on the experience

I knew as soon as I wrote that someone was going to jump in with "TN isn't so bad". That wasn't my point, so let's not derail the discussion. The viewing angle difference is pretty clear between the two types, but if you've never seen an IPS you might not realize that TN is more limited - that's all I'm saying, you sometimes need a side-by-side comparison.
post #43 of 294
I realize microstutter has always been there, but I'm not sure I believe it is as noticeable as some people would report. Somewhat like a placebo effect because of what everyone is seeing in the graphs.

I had a CF 7970 setup and then traded for a SLi 680 setup, simply to see what the other side of the fence was like. Aside from the one PhysX game I play (Borderlands 2), there was no perceivable difference on my 120Hz monitor. The "smoothness" I always hear nVidia reviews talking about wasn't any different between the two setups. I have good eyes, and an above average attention to detail. That's not to say that someone else might not see it, I just feel that to at least some extent, the microstutter thing has gotten blown out of proportion.
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post #44 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3illusiveman View Post

well that was predictable, next we will have Alatar, Cloudfire and StayPuff and all those other people who tried soo hard to justify the TITAN come in a blow the same horn.

I'd wait for more websites to do this kind of testing before it holds any water.

I'm definitely not trying to justify the price of a Titan. The card is not going to be worth it to 99% of people. I bought one because I could, and will be the first to admit it's not the best price/performance on the market. People should buy what they feel is right for them. tongue.gif

With that said, at least you are keeping an open mind and not fully ruling out that this is a problem like some people. I personally experienced this when going from my 5970 to my 580. A dual GPU card to a single GPU of roughly the same performance, which is the type of situation you need for frame lag to be a factor. There have been many tests done on this recently. To name a few off the top of my head: PCP, HardwareCanucks, and TechReport. They all came to the same conclusion that it is a problem.
Edited by Murlocke - 2/23/13 at 12:12am
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post #45 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlocke View Post

I'm definitely not trying to justify the price of a Titan. The card is not going to be worth it to 99% of people. I bought one because I could, and will be the first to admit it's not the best price/performance on the market. People should buy what they feel is right for them. tongue.gif

With that said, at least you are keeping an open mind and not fully ruling out that this is a problem like some people. I personally experienced this when going from my 5970 to my 580. A dual GPU card to a single GPU of roughly the same performance, which is the type of situation you need for frame lag to be a factor. There have been many tests done on this recently. To name a few off my head: PCP, HardwareCanucks, and TechReport. They all came to the same conclusion that it is a problem.
Fair enough, i'll drop it smile.gif
I use a 120hz monitor which means most games need to be rendered under 8.3 milliseconds for this stutter to go away (as people claim) and not the 16.7ms for 60hz panels.

As you can imagine driving alot of todays games at 120fps sometimes isn't feasible on my cards, according to these tests I should have a terrible unplayable experience yet games are just fine when they are 60fps (half the refresh rate) and over. I also went from 2 GTx570s to a 7970 at 1225/1600Mhz the difference between the two in perceived smoothness is not apparent at all.

There are some games out there that stutter like mad and are unplayable (FarCry 3 is not a smooth experience, Max Payne 3 with MSAA isn't smooth (unless they patched it)) but for the most part alot of games feel the same on the two setups.
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post #46 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3illusiveman View Post

Fair enough, i'll drop it smile.gif
I use a 120hz monitor which means most games need to be rendered under 8.3 milliseconds for this stutter to go away (as people claim) and not the 16.7ms for 60hz panels.

As you can imagine driving alot of todays games at 120fps sometimes isn't feasible on my cards, according to these tests I should have a terrible unplayable experience yet games are just fine when they are 60fps (half the refresh rate) and over. I also went from 2 GTx570s to a 7970 at 1225/1600Mhz the difference between the two in perceived smoothness is not apparent at all.

There are some games out there that stutter like mad and are unplayable (FarCry 3 is not a smooth experience, Max Payne 3 with MSAA isn't smooth (unless they patched it)) but for the most part alot of games feel the same on the two setups.

I do sound like a repeating record but something many of these tests fail to mention is:
Frame lag means pretty much nothing at over 60FPS on any setup. There's a few trouble games out there (FC3), that are an exception, but for the majority of games frame lag means nothing if you can achieve of 60FPS in them. I think this is why many people think it doesn't exist, most people on 2x 7970s or 2x 680s will never drop below 60FPS.
Edited by Murlocke - 2/23/13 at 12:27am
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post #47 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomama22 View Post


I should have rephrased my original statement. no one has used a slow mo cam to review a card anything of the sort, I just know what will come of this once frame timings start to become used by everyone.

This was the first video that I've seen that got me into researching microstutter, and I believe that it's one of the first videos to even demonstrate it.
post #48 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlocke View Post

I do sound like a repeating record but something many of these tests fail to mention is:
Frame lag means pretty much nothing at over 60FPS on any setup. There's a few trouble games out there (FC3), that are an exception, but for the majority of games frame lag means nothing if you can achieve of 60FPS in them. I think this is why many people think it doesn't exist, most people on 2x 7970s or 2x 680s will never drop below 60FPS.

This is the kind of stuff the reviewer needs to be saying when trying to justify their data. They briefly mention that higher fps makes it less noticeable, but that is as far as they go.

You wonder why people have their panties in a twist over it but its because this isn't explained to anyone.
     
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post #49 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by airisom2 View Post


This was the first video that I've seen that got me into researching microstutter, and I believe that it's one of the first videos to even demonstrate it.

This is the PERFECT video to show microstuttering and frame lag. It perfectly shows how 30FPS on a single GPU is playable, while on a multi GPU it is not. When you compare multi GPU and single GPU at, say 60FPS and above, there is little to no difference and that's why many people claim it doesn't exist.

You get some rep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomama22 View Post

You wonder why people have their panties in a twist over it but its because this isn't explained to anyone.

Ha, I do my best to keep posting it in these threads to help people understand.. but I feel like i'm saying the same things over and over and it's just not getting through sometimes. We need more people to explain these things, and definitely need the companies to explain it in their tests. tongue.gif
Edited by Murlocke - 2/23/13 at 12:38am
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post #50 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by airisom2 View Post

*video*


This was the first video that I've seen that got me into researching microstutter, and I believe that it's one of the first videos to even demonstrate it.
And its a great tool for this purpose, to show what micro stutter is.

But, I am waiting for the day when a review tries to chastise a smooth game experience because their slow mo can shows stuttering.

They just do not represent what any human could actually see...that's actually the point of them, to show us details we couldn't normally see, or what I'm scared of, showing me stutter I couldn't normally see.
Edited by jomama22 - 2/23/13 at 12:48am
     
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