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post #201 of 234
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Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

The ones that are niche cost less because they get a lesser budget.

I'm just saying that there are millions more gamers than in 1995. Which is millions more sales. The number of gamers has only ever risen, and never fallen.
I'll repeat myself. No matter how amazing you make a RTS game in the eyes of RTS fans, you're not going to pull sales from people who don't like that genre. If you actively try to pull fans from other genres, fans of the genre you're actually making won't be happy (see: Halo Wars). If Battlefield 4 comes out and everyone just concedes the FPS market because the game is legitimately perfect and no other FPS is going to compete with it, people who only play sports games still aren't going to buy it.

There are a lot more gamers, there's no denying that. There's also no denying that development costs have exponentially increased since the 90s since good programmers don't come cheap and the video game development skillset easily translates to other fields. Additionally, the exponential growth of gamers in existing genres is leveling out compared to earlier in this console generation. The market isn't pushing for better games, it's pushing for new genres. Gamers want better games, and developers certainly want to put out better games, but making significant improvements to quality is expensive, and those improvements won't generate additional sales proportionately.
Quote:
And slightly off topic, but I can say, hands down, that the reason publishers are in turmoil is because they're PLC's with shareholders and investors sticking their noses and two penneth in. PLC's have to make profit and pay dividends, need large CEO's with massive pay packages and so on. For instance, BF3 will have turned a nice profit... a NICE profit. Yet if that's not enough, it's because it's not enough for the shareholders and it's suddenly a problem and they need to "monetise" games more by injecting these sales in. More more more. And that's the problem with publishers. Valve, on the other hand, are entirely private and don't have that issue of shareholders, who know nothing of the industry, demanding things and talking about crap they don't understand. (EDIT: and yes Valve hav eingame selling, but that was a response to people buying and selling outside of the game)
You try funding multiple $10Million+ projects at a time without investors. Kickstarter is the only viable alternative, but if Star Citizen and the other major crowdsourced titles don't do well, it'll kill it before it gets started.
Quote:
I'll wager, that right now, Valve are worth more and have more in the bank than EA, despite the fact that EA are huge and make a lot of stuff.
Wagering Walmart is worth more than Kroger isn't much of a wager... The vast majority of Valve's wealth is not even tied to their development studios, it's why UPlay and Origin were created. EA also spends significantly more money than Valve does. Raw revenue is probably comparable, but Valve isn't spending it. Take away Steam, and Valve is using one game to fund the next. Making more off the first game means more to spend on the next.
Edited by -Apocalypse- - 3/4/13 at 9:16am
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post #202 of 234
Go ahead and repeat yourself all you want. It doesn't make you any more right.

Budgets have risen, sales and risen. Trying to take inflation into account and say we are still getting a good price is wrong. There is no excuse other than greed for these micro-transactions, and that greed can be traced to shareholders.
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post #203 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

Go ahead and repeat yourself all you want. It doesn't make you any more right.

Budgets have risen, sales and risen. Trying to take inflation into account and say we are still getting a good price is wrong. There is no excuse other than greed for these micro-transactions, and that greed can be traced to shareholders.

That and the majority of salaries in the US haven't budged for quite a few years. Game prices are rising and our salaries aren't. Cartridges costed more to produce than DVDs do now, which is why games were $70-$80 back then. Publishers decided to raise prices for some PC games to $60 simply because they can; the customers pay it and even if they lose a few thousand customers, it's justified and suits them perfectly. Publishers pay MS/Sony more for the consoles now than they used to, but that's not the case for PC, so where's the justification for the $10 increase on the PC side? There is none. The publishers just know the math.

A $50 game that 10 million people would have bought at full price is $500 million in revenue.
A $60 game that only 8 million people buy would be $480 million in revenue, + $50 X 2 million when the game drops to $50 or less and those that didn't want to pay $60 buy it for a total of $580 million. The publisher earns about 15% more this way.

The publishers are more than happy to delay revenue from the customers that are willing to spend $50 but not $60 if it means getting $10 more from the several million early adopters. The root of the problem is: the customers. If you oppose the increase of game prices, oppose it with your wallet. Don't buy the game until it drops to a price you agree with. If everyone would adopt this practice, release day sales figures would plummet and the publishers would be forced to lower their prices; they have to recover their investment as quickly as possible and selling below your cost on release day is a tough hit to bear.

Anyone who pays the $60 and whines about it needs to put themselves in the publisher's shoes: if you own a huge business, and you can get $10 more out of your millions of customers even if it meant delaying purchases from other customers to a later point when you drop prices $10, wouldn't you just go for it? I personally wouldn't. With that kind of revenue and profit stream I'd be much more generous, especially having experienced myself what my customers would be feeling. Treat others as you want to be treated. Want your customers to keep coming back and buying your future releases? Give them a great quality game at a good price that they'll all be happy with. $40 all-inclusive, great quality game release with no nickel and diming for DLC/microtransactions. BF3 has sold about ~3 million Premium memberships, where the game has sold well over 10 million copies. That says a lot about how the customers feel about the cash grab. While I'll probably end up buying BF4 after I see some content, I have a feeling EA's success with it will be pretty grim.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 3/4/13 at 10:33am
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post #204 of 234
I can see where a lot of people are coming from, but I cannot see where I am going ....... biggrin.gif
post #205 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

Go ahead and repeat yourself all you want. It doesn't make you any more right.

Budgets have risen, sales and risen. Trying to take inflation into account and say we are still getting a good price is wrong. There is no excuse other than greed for these micro-transactions, and that greed can be traced to shareholders.
Budgets are rising faster than sales. Trying to say that paying the same price for Battlefield 3 as Perfect Dark Zero isn't a good deal is wrong. I won't deny greed is a major factor, but better games with the current margins aren't viable either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

That and the majority of salaries in the US haven't budged for quite a few years. Game prices are rising and our salaries aren't. Cartridges costed more to produce than DVDs do now, which is why games were $70-$80 back then. Publishers decided to raise prices for some PC games to $60 simply because they can; the customers pay it and even if they lose a few thousand customers, it's justified and suits them perfectly. Publishers pay MS/Sony more for the consoles now than they used to, but that's not the case for PC, so where's the justification for the $10 increase on the PC side? There is none. The publishers just know the math.

A $50 game that 10 million people would have bought at full price is $500 million in revenue.
A $60 game that only 8 million people buy would be $480 million in revenue, + X million when the game drops to $50 or less.

The publishers are more than happy to delay revenue from the customers that are willing to spend $50 but not $60 if it means getting $10 more from the several million early adopters. The root of the problem is: the customers. If you oppose the increase of game prices, oppose it with your wallet. Don't buy the game until it drops to a price you agree with. If everyone would adopt this practice, release day sales figures would plummet and the publishers would be forced to lower their prices; they have to recover their investment as quickly as possible and selling below your cost on release day is a tough hit to bear.
And what you just described is why the base game isn't $70. However, your last paragraph is untrue because you slip in an assumption that most people don't agree with a $60 price tag. The price you want doesn't set the market (see: Gasoline), the price you'll pay does.

Also, the difference is price from cartridge to dvd is trivialized by the difference in development budget. You're not paying for the dvd, you're paying for the work that went into what's on the dvd and that's hundreds of thousands of times more than what was on cartridges.
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post #206 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

10 years ago smartphones weren't common, so resurgence of games based on availability is its own consideration. Also, google play shows the bestselling game as Minecraft, what are you seeing as the top game?
Try again. Minecraft is the top PAID game. Guess which game is top grossing? That's right, a "free" game based on microtransaction.
Quote:
Beyond that, there is not a single FTP game that has done well financially without being fun to play before MTs. A game has to be good to be successful as FTP. Aliens: Colonial Marines wouldn't have made half of what it did had it been FTP. The better a FTP game is, the longer people play it, and the more they spend on it. The entire FTP model is about putting out a game that people want to play enough that they don't mind $1 here, $2 there. Sorry to burst your bubble, but more successful FTP games require better games.
You have no idea what you're talking about and didn't even read my post, although I'm not expecting someone supporting MTs to understand. Trust me when I say you aren't busting any bubbles, buddy. F2P is successful because of casual tablet gamers who objectively don't know what good games are. Again, check out which games are at the top on android (Pro tip: it's not minecraft).

Almost every single game that has become F2P has become categorically worse, introducing pay2win power creep that incentivises reducing the amount of fun the game has in order to get people to P2W to bypass it. GW2 being an exception that did MT well without making the game worse, but it's a rare gem that proves the rule.
post #207 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicmew View Post

Try again. Minecraft is the top PAID game. Guess which game is top grossing? That's right, a "free" game based on microtransaction.
I'll readily admit I didn't look hard.
Quote:
You have no idea what you're talking about and didn't even read my post, although I'm not expecting someone supporting MTs to understand. Trust me when I say you aren't busting any bubbles, buddy. F2P is successful because of casual tablet gamers who objectively don't know what good games are. Again, check out which games are at the top on android (Pro tip: it's not minecraft).
Casual != bad. If you're going to argue from the elitist standpoint there's not really much point arguing because you're comparing completely different markets and completely different genres and saying one reflects the other. Tablet/phone games aren't designed to be blockbusters or incredibly deep experiences. They're designed to be fun in 5-15 minute bursts while you're sitting on the subway, waiting in line, or otherwise only have a couple minutes. Trying to argue Bloons is designed for the same purpose as SimCity is absurd. Different purposes, different genres, different markets, different reasons. A good PC game can make a bad phone game and vis versa. If you're not the target market for a game, that hardly makes it a bad game, just a game you don't like.
Quote:
Almost every single game that has become F2P has become categorically worse, introducing pay2win power creep that incentivises reducing the amount of fun the game has in order to get people to P2W to bypass it. GW2 being an exception that did MT well without making the game worse, but it's a rare gem that proves the rule.
I don't disagree, but those games have NOT done well. Most games that are FTP aren't AAA games, but they weren't designed to be. Compare them to the paid games they actually compete with. LoL and PS2 are both far better games than the average paid game. A bad FTP game makes less money than a bad paid game, a good FTP game makes more money than a good paid game.
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post #208 of 234
Wow so much QQ about this. Look at the micro transaction success with league of legends and TF2. I like micro transactions because they often make the game free, or cheaper, and I don't really care if I can't get the best weapons and armor/skins/whatever. They also let developers expand game content as time progresses, which means the game has more longevity. Sure, if they took something out of the original game and made it a micro transaction, that's pretty cheap, but otherwise i can't see why people are declaring war on EA.
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post #209 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by serp777 View Post

Wow so much QQ about this. Look at the micro transaction success with league of legends and TF2. I like micro transactions because they often make the game free, or cheaper, and I don't really care if I can't get the best weapons and armor/skins/whatever. They also let developers expand game content as time progresses, which means the game has more longevity. Sure, if they took something out of the original game and made it a micro transaction, that's pretty cheap, but otherwise i can't see why people are declaring war on EA.
Except you are very wrong here.
You are using League and TF2 as your examples? Those games are free. You think EA will make their games cheaper or even free? hahahaha.
Nononono, you will have to pay your usual price AND then be pressed in your face with micro transation every single time you click on something.
EA has been doing this for quite a while. Want a lovely example? I present Dragon age Origins. In said game in your camp there is a shop with micro transations and he blatenly tells so. Bbye immersion.
Edited by Assirra - 3/4/13 at 4:04pm
post #210 of 234
The Super Minority complain (and hopefully vote with their wallets, although you will get hypocrites all the time). rightfully so and the masses lap that stuff up as if it was anti-freeze. But no one here should be surprised one bit. This will be the norm like it or not. We have already begun to enter the dark ages in video game timeline imo. In the sense of us being railroaded 24/7. In the sense of creativity, maybe that too. In the sense of us PC gamers? Well, we have been continuously railroaded for the better part of the last 10 years. lol.
Edited by opi - 3/4/13 at 4:44pm
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