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post #1281 of 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclum View Post

steam is just another means of denying you from playing the game you BOUGHT... it's the principle behind adding another layer of control over what you BOUGHT... it's like buying a car, but the dealer installed a kill switch that activates every 3 months if you don't bring the car back for service... it's unfortunate the sense of ownership being given up is becoming the norm. it's like you spend $ so steam will LOAN you the game, but at any time they can decide to take the game away from you and you cant do anything about it or have to spend weeks in email hell trying to get the game back...

when i buy a car, i don't want to have to beg the dealer i bought it from to let me drive the car...

Yes, Valve is evil and they will take away your rights to play the games on your account. Paranoia at its finest. rolleyes.gif
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post #1282 of 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

Except games and software have ALWAYS been this way. Yes even physical copies. If said company decided to no longer let people use it, they would be well within their legal right to just up and take it away from you. Just because they HAVEN'T ever done it, doesn't mean that they can't and/or won't. When you "buy" a piece of software, you're buying the license to use it, you don't ever own it in a true legal and technical sense.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1455705/forbes-steam-removes-game-order-of-war-challenge-from-user-libraries

i wouldn't say "HAVEN'T ever done it" tongue.gif

and if your steam account is banned, what happens to the 1200 games you bought in your library? biggrin.gif

or you can have some "strange issues"

http://www.overclock.net/t/1333815/bought-steam-games-asking-me-to-buy-them-again

there are many other examples from steam forum, but i thought OCN posts are more relevant in this discussion.

this is not an argument I'm going to win here...
but i just want to remind people that they are giving up their rights way too easily. almost to the point of being a crack addict defending the drug dealer...
post #1283 of 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclum View Post

http://www.overclock.net/t/1455705/forbes-steam-removes-game-order-of-war-challenge-from-user-libraries

i wouldn't say "HAVEN'T ever done it" tongue.gif

and if your steam account is banned, what happens to the 1200 games you bought in your library? biggrin.gif

or you can have some "strange issues"

http://www.overclock.net/t/1333815/bought-steam-games-asking-me-to-buy-them-again

there are many other examples from steam forum, but i thought OCN posts are more relevant in this discussion.

this is not an argument I'm going to win here...
but i just want to remind people that they are giving up their rights way too easily. almost to the point of being a crack addict defending the drug dealer...


That order of war game was removed because extra DRM from the people who released the game got taken offline, and the game was unplayable anyways.

The OCN thread is an obvious PEBKAC issue from buying a humble bundle.
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post #1284 of 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclum View Post

http://www.overclock.net/t/1455705/forbes-steam-removes-game-order-of-war-challenge-from-user-libraries

i wouldn't say "HAVEN'T ever done it" tongue.gif

and if your steam account is banned, what happens to the 1200 games you bought in your library? biggrin.gif


or you can have some "strange issues"

http://www.overclock.net/t/1333815/bought-steam-games-asking-me-to-buy-them-again

there are many other examples from steam forum, but i thought OCN posts are more relevant in this discussion.

this is not an argument I'm going to win here...
but i just want to remind people that they are giving up their rights way too easily. almost to the point of being a crack addict defending the drug dealer...

Your right to use the license was removed, for all those games. You agreed to that in the legally binding EULA for Steam. 99% of the time, if your account is banned, it's for doing something you weren't supposed to be doing in the first place. And yes, we all know about that mass false banning that happened, the peoples' accounts were returned and I think they got a free game out of it. I hate to be the person who brings up the EULA that everyone just clicks past these days (even I do it) but a lengthy read through all that would be an eye-opener for a lot of people.

And besides, my post was more to the point of, EVERY game both physical and digital, regardless of whether it's on Steam or not, is never really legally owned by you. You bought a license to use it which can be revoked at any time for any reason the company wishes. That's not a Steam thing, that's an EVERYTHING thing, so arbitrarily hating Steam for something that's a universal policy, is a little naive.

And again, even physical copies and non-Steam games are the same way. If a company decided that it wanted every copy of it's game removed from the market, and peoples' homes, technically they have legal right. Will that ever happen? maybe a .0001% chance, but it could.
 
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post #1285 of 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

I hate to be the person who brings up the EULA that everyone just clicks past these days (even I do it) but a lengthy read through all that would be an eye-opener for a lot of people.

And besides, my post was more to the point of, EVERY game both physical and digital, regardless of whether it's on Steam or not, is never really legally owned by you. You bought a license to use it which can be revoked at any time for any reason the company wishes. That's not a Steam thing, that's an EVERYTHING thing, so arbitrarily hating Steam for something that's a universal policy, is a little naive.

this is pretty much what i'm talking about. people are so addicted to games that they don't really care about what they are agreeing to... till it affects them....

it's easy to give up consumer rights. they know this so they tag more and more stuff on because they know they can get away with it... if steam only had 3 games. would you be willing to agree to all the stuff they put into the TOS/EULA? people kept using steam and they kept becoming bolder on what they put into the EULA of STEAM (not even the games themselves) they KNOW you CAN'T play the games you PAID for w/o steam so they can put additional restrictions and demands upon YOU...

if i was BANNED from steam, i can still fire up my ARMA2 and play a single player game or join a different server or host my own server etc... if I'm banned from steam, i cant do ANYTHING in ARMA3 except trying to BEG for my account back since there are 1200 OTHER games that were PAID FOR on that account... biggrin.gif

i'm the extreme minority here being that i'm unable to consent to STEAM's EULAgreement and people look at me as "strange" at best for NOT agreeing... however, if enough people decide to NOT agree to their EULA, then they won't put as much "stuff" into those EULA...

We the People of the Republic of Gamers, in Order to form a more perfect Gaming environment, establish Justice, insure gaming access, provide for the common defense against denial of games, promote the general gaming community, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to play games ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Republic of Gamers

etc... biggrin.gif

anyway. like i said. this is an argument i wont win here. the current generation of gamers are far too indoctrinated to see beyond their ADHD and would pretty much agree to cut their left pinky toe off just so they can play battlefield 5 beta biggrin.gif

PS. on the flip side. as strange as it might sound, I'm actually a proponent to steamOS/steambox because it offers additional competition to windows gaming and would likely promote more linux gaming. biggrin.gif i still wouldn't use it myself, however i would defend it.
Edited by psyclum - 1/7/14 at 8:53am
post #1286 of 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

Your right to use the license was removed, for all those games. You agreed to that in the legally binding EULA for Steam. 99% of the time, if your account is banned, it's for doing something you weren't supposed to be doing in the first place. And yes, we all know about that mass false banning that happened, the peoples' accounts were returned and I think they got a free game out of it. I hate to be the person who brings up the EULA that everyone just clicks past these days (even I do it) but a lengthy read through all that would be an eye-opener for a lot of people.

And besides, my post was more to the point of, EVERY game both physical and digital, regardless of whether it's on Steam or not, is never really legally owned by you. You bought a license to use it which can be revoked at any time for any reason the company wishes. That's not a Steam thing, that's an EVERYTHING thing, so arbitrarily hating Steam for something that's a universal policy, is a little naive.

And again, even physical copies and non-Steam games are the same way. If a company decided that it wanted every copy of it's game removed from the market, and peoples' homes, technically they have legal right. Will that ever happen? maybe a .0001% chance, but it could.

Your entire Steam account wont ever be locked, I cant think of a single person whos account (unless using theft to buy games) has been locked.
All I know is you get banned in the games you cheat in for instance, but not locked from your account.
post #1287 of 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclum View Post

steam is just another means of denying you from playing the game you BOUGHT... it's the principle behind adding another layer of control over what you BOUGHT... it's like buying a car, but the dealer installed a kill switch that activates every 3 months if you don't bring the car back for service... it's unfortunate the sense of ownership being given up is becoming the norm. it's like you spend $ so steam will LOAN you the game, but at any time they can decide to take the game away from you and you cant do anything about it or have to spend weeks in email hell trying to get the game back...

when i buy a car, i don't want to have to beg the dealer i bought it from to let me drive the car...

So it's paranoia that you suffer from. That explains a lot.


You realize no business that cares for it's longevity will start taking away a persons games(or any product) at a whim for absolutely no reason. It's hard to get completely banned on Steam, I believe you have to hack other accounts or something like that to be fully banned. As far as I know, even hacking or cheating within an MP only gets you VAC Banned from that game, not your whole account.
post #1288 of 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enad1 View Post

So it's paranoia that you suffer from. That explains a lot.


You realize no business that cares for it's longevity will start taking away a persons games(or any product) at a whim for absolutely no reason. It's hard to get completely banned on Steam, I believe you have to hack other accounts or something like that to be fully banned. As far as I know, even hacking or cheating within an MP only gets you VAC Banned from that game, not your whole account.

In order to get your steam account banned, you have to use it for fraud- which ranges from buying games and then doing chargebacks, to pretending you're steam support to get people to give you your password.

The only way an "innocent" person can get slammed is if they accept steam gifts from someone who used fraudulent payment (or a glitch) to get those games, since people try using gifts to alt accounts to get past the ban.
Edited by Crazy9000 - 1/7/14 at 11:56am
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post #1289 of 1589
afaik, a single charge back from your CC company is enough to get your ACCOUNT locked... so if steam decided that you don't deserve a refund for ANY reason,(and lets face it, they rarely EVER decide you deserve ANY kind of refund) you are out of that $ or you get your acct banned for a charge back... consumer rights does not exist in this situation. like i said, there are too many steam addicts here for me to convey any kind of meaningful message across and it's really derailing the thread... just remember the next time you get ****** over by EULA that you AGREED to it smile.gif eventually someone would realize they agreed to giving away too many rights.

currently the gaming industry appears to be a "sellers market" where they dictate the terms of the sale ENTIRELY. and what's worse is the terms aren't even being dictated by the MAKERS of the game, but by the SELLERS of the game... IMO this is one of the reasons why star citizen seems to be doing so well because people are TIRED of the middleman telling them what they can or can't do with the game... we have to remember STEAM doesn't MAKE the game, they are just a store much like gamestop or walmart...
post #1290 of 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclum View Post

afaik, a single charge back from your CC company is enough to get your ACCOUNT locked... so if steam decided that you don't deserve a refund for ANY reason,(and lets face it, they rarely EVER decide you deserve ANY kind of refund) you are out of that $ or you get your acct banned for a charge back... consumer rights does not exist in this situation. like i said, there are too many steam addicts here for me to convey any kind of meaningful message across and it's really derailing the thread... just remember the next time you get ****** over by EULA that you AGREED to it smile.gif eventually someone would realize they agreed to giving away too many rights.

currently the gaming industry appears to be a "sellers market" where they dictate the terms of the sale ENTIRELY. and what's worse is the terms aren't even being dictated by the MAKERS of the game, but by the SELLERS of the game... IMO this is one of the reasons why star citizen seems to be doing so well because people are TIRED of the middleman telling them what they can or can't do with the game... we have to remember STEAM doesn't MAKE the game, they are just a store much like gamestop or walmart...

I don't know where you got the idea that games were ever able to be refunded. We have never been eligible for a refund on a game after it's opened/installed. I'm not sure what happens if you buy a game at wallmart then do a chargeback when they refuse to give you a refund because it's opened, but do it a few times and I'm sure they will call the police next time you try to buy something... with steam you just get a banned account. Steam will also give you a refund on any game you haven't installed, which covers the only legitimate reasons for giving a refund on a game.

Your second paragraph has to do with the publishers of games, so has nothing to do with steam since they just sell it, as you pointed out.
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