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[ARS Technica] “Download this gun”: 3D-printed semi-automatic fires over 600 rounds - Page 9  

post #81 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteCrane View Post

These idiots are opening the door for more government control / authorization of the 3d printer.

Don't think it would be much easier, more direct, and intelligent to just regulate ammunition? Or other parts of the gun? Or even just make DIY receivers illegal.

I'm more worried about more limits being placed on my guns than my 3D printer.
    
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post #82 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek View Post

Don't think it would be much easier, more direct, and intelligent to just regulate ammunition? Or other parts of the gun? Or even just make DIY receivers illegal.

I'm more worried about more limits being placed on my guns than my 3D printer.

Right, that's not a conversation I want to have on OCN. BUt this is how it is. Guns are already regulated. 3D printers are not, and 3d printers have more to offer to people than guns do at this point. Everyone who wants a gun has one, everyone who doesn't isn't being forced to buy one. The gun world is doing reasonably okay.

3d printers are in their infancy, and if they are associated with guns, there will be controls put on them to render them useless. Imagine copyright trolling fo all manufactured products. It has already been suggested that they be locked down like an iPhone and have to get permission from a copyright database before printing anything.

Per wikipedia: (I don't care if you mock the source, wikipedia has citations like every other reputable webpage)
Quote:
"On 30 March 1858, Hymen Lipman received the first patent for attaching an eraser to the end of a pencil.[21] In 1862, Lipman sold his patent to Joseph Reckendorfer for $100,000, who went on to sue pencil manufacturer Faber-Castell for infringement.[22] In 1875, the Supreme Court of the US ruled against Reckendorfer declaring the patent invalid.[23]"

In today's world of copyrights, that patent would have been upheld, even thought there is nothing novel about putting 2 things together.
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post #83 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteCrane View Post

These idiots are opening the door for more government control / authorization of the 3d printer.

Exercising one's rights shouldn't be an excuse to limit those rights. Indeed, a right you can't exercise is just as meaningless as a law that cannot be enforced.

Blame those that would restrict what you can do with 3D printers, not those that do what they can with 3D printers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek View Post

I'm more worried about more limits being placed on my guns than my 3D printer.

Both are equally unacceptable to me.
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post #84 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

They aren't, but there are about a million people incarcerated in the US because of non-violent drug offenses.

Ahh right. Gotcha. The ol' mary jane, illegal in 'merica because it would have killed the paper and cotton industries IIRC...

edit: even though smoking actual hemp is pointless...
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post #85 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Exercising one's rights shouldn't be an excuse to limit those rights. Indeed, a right you can't exercise is just as meaningless as a law that cannot be enforced.

Blame those that would restrict what you can do with 3D printers, not those that do what they can with 3D printers.
Both are equally unacceptable to me.

Blameless, I am with you. I agree philosophically, they aren't doing anything wrong. But since the 3d printer is already under attack from just about every industry today, their actions will result in the 3d printer being controlled. You will never print a gun in your lifetime, because of them.

If Napster had been conceived, before the internet was built... they wouldn't have built the internet. Company lobbyists make the rules. Now they can scare people with the idea of assault rifles raining from the sky. Something people do not want. We have given copyright lobbyists the ammunition they need to kill the 3d printer.
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post #86 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Do you know anything about steels? Aluminum? Why 4041 is used on most actions? Barrels? Anything?

As a matter of fact, yes Sir, I do. 4041 aluminum is not used in any firearm actions that I'm aware of. Bolts, barrels, and actions for virtually all centerfire-chambered firearms will be steel of varying flavors. Carpenter makes the go-to steels for American-made semi-auto rifles. 4340/4350, 8620, and 4140 are steels of choice for bolt action rifle actions. There is no polymer in existence that can match the material properties of the aforementioned steels that can be 3D printed; all of them require treating, hardening, and stress relieving. To say that one can be used to create an action for a .408 Cheyenne, itself a 63k PSI round, is a bold-faced lie. It is not possible.

Let me repeat that so that I'm perfectly clear. It is not possible. This is not an opinion, but material properties (aka, physics). A .408 Cheyenne will explode spectacularly and dangerously if you attempt to use a polymer action for one.

For pistol frames? Maybe. That $1500 printer won't be printing pistol frames safe for use with centerfire handgun rounds though. It can't use the resins strong enough to match what Glock, FN, H&K, et al use in their pistols. That's likely to change in the future; pistol frames are a lot more within the realm of capability of affordable resins. That's not to say it will be easy though, as Glock learned with their third gen .40 S&W compact and full-sized pistols.

Where these printers will be awesome with what can be done now is in polymer magazines. Again, won't be the same stuff Magpul uses so it won't have the durability, but reliability is a matter of design and geometry. Metal of like wall thickness will still be stronger, but if you could knock out 50 magazines for $500 or less, that puts you in GI magazine prices that you can make at home. That's cool stuff.

Quote:
It's just not worth saying anything else because you clearly don't comprehend why a BCG/Buffer spring would cause more stress then a forward motion...

You mean how the BCG goes back into the receiver extension, contacts the buffer, compresses the action spring, and ultimately bottoms out against the rear of the receiver extension?

I don't know who you learned what you know about ARs from, but I suspect it's not from the likes of Trey at KAC, Bill Alexander, Mike Pannone, Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Kino Davis of Vltor, or Paul Buffoni of Bravo Company. Trey's family helped design the system. Bill Alexander, Kino Davis, and Paul Buffoni helped refine the system in these post-2004-sunset years. Pannone, Rogers, and Vickers wrote the book (one of them literally) on how to use and maintain an AR15. Yes, Sir, I have some knowledge of the platform.

The rear of a to-spec lower receiver where it curves up to the threads for the receiver extension does not flex or compress. Since it does not flex or compress, no stress is put on the takedown pin hole. This is a result of the material properties of 7075 aluminum. I have never seen or heard of a 7075 aluminum receiver cracking by the takedown pin. I know companies like Olympic Arms, Vulcan Arms, Plum Crazy, and other bottom-feeder AR makers have experienced lower receiver breaks on their non-7075 lower receivers. The crack in your picture is a result of the lower receiver compressing when the BCG, buffer, and action spring bottom out in the receiver extension. Solution? Choose a material that resists compression. Polymers can do it, and will eventually be able to, but the lower receiver is still the lowest-stress critical part of an AR15. It's the only function-related component you can really replace with polymer.

Those anti-rotation pins are actually interesting and relevant; they're typically solutions to out-of-spec receiver holes. You may want to mull that over for a minute.

AS for an AR10 receiver... different animal altogether. Due to the dimensions they are a bit more stressed than AR15 receivers so it'll be quite a while before polymer can replace metal in an AR10 lower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

I never said a 4473 ever left the FFL.

I have friends that work @ The DESP, ATF and NICS -- This is coming from THEM.

That's nice. When you fill out that 4473, it sits in a specified binder that FFL keeps and never leaves it (excepting investigation or license revocation). Yes, the information can definitely be used to create a registry. No, there is no registry at the moment unless specific to certain few states. When you fill out your 5320 form(s), you are registering a firearm as an NFA firearm and/or notifying the ATF of the transfer of an NFA firearm. (For the sake of other readers, the NFA functions more or less like Shall Issue carry licenses; fill out the forms, pay the fees, a background check is conducted, ye wait, and ye shall receive if nothing in the background check would indicate you cannot legally take possession of the mentioned firearm.)

There is a registry for NFA firearms. There is not a registry for non-NFA firearms unless specific to one of a couple States. Manufacturers must by law log every firearm produced, but once they deliver that firearm its existence is documented solely by the transfer papers at FFLs and resellers. A central registry does not exist for the firearms, their points of transit, consumer sale, etc.

I say all of this because the ability to fabricate unregistered firearms are not really a big deal. If you file off serial numbers and identifiers, you make the firearm just as impossible to trace as if you'd fabricated the gun yourself. The criminal application simply isn't there. It is definitely viable for people living in ban states to make their own lower to shoot their otherwise-ban-category firearms, but as we've seen the printed materials still aren't quite there yet. I'd have to check, but I think the jigs and tools to complete an 80% lower are about the same price as a 3D printer, only you'd have a true 7075 lower that will last as long as any other made to correct specs. Tradeoff between ease of making (3D printed is easier and quicker) and durability (resin won't hold a candle to 7075 now or for probably many years).
    
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post #87 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteCrane View Post

Company lobbyists make the rules.

And as far as i can see you guys (and we won't be far behind) just got put over a barrel and not even offered a reach around...inspection of all your internet traffic? There should be an OCN guide on how to set up a 256 bit AES encrypted connection to the web!

What's in that new facility again? IIRC there was a US gov building a huge facility somewhere in nowhere that was huge and for monitoring all internets....search OCN yourself tongue.gif
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post #88 of 105
    
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post #89 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteCrane View Post

We have given copyright lobbyists the ammunition they need to kill the 3d printer.

A 3D printer is ultimately a collection of fairly common, very multi-purpose, parts. You can't kill 3D printing any more than you could implement effective weapon controls on wooden boards with nails through them.
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post #90 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussianHak View Post

That has been dated for such a long time. Try a 74, or a AEK.
Well, it's not as old of a design as the 1911. rolleyes.gif

The AK47 is still a good design. The direct impingement gas system is a better design in terms of accuracy and controllability during automatic fire, and it only has reliability issues when large volumes of ammunition are fired in a short period of time; if it were used as a SAW, for example. The reason the AK47/AKM has a reputation for being reliable has a lot to do with the fact that many of the mass produced versions have looser tolerances, so that dirt does not cause them to jam as easily as a gun with tigher tolerances, like the m16. Also, the AR-15 has an undeserved reputation for unreliability, mostly coming from the soldiers in Vietnam who thought that it was self cleaning.

The AEK-971 is also not in widespread use, as far as I know.
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