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post #71 of 131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post

I completely agree.

That's actually the problem with ALL tri-SLI/fire setups right now. So many people on these boards are under the impression that the technology or drivers is 'the problem', but that's really not it, IMHO.

I believe the primary problem is that since i7 came out 4 years ago, mainstream CPU's have only gotten about 40% faster (comparing like a 4-core, 8 thread Ivy vs a similar Nehalem at max OC's, i.e. 4.0-ish on Nehalem vs 5.0-ish on Ivy), yet over that same time period we've gone from GTX280 to friggin TITAN ... which is like 400% faster.

GPU tech has been basically been growing at an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE faster than CPU tech over the past 4 years. And exacerbating the issue is the fact that as you add more GPU's, the load on the CPU grows along with them. Every additional GPU adds a considerable amount of 'overhead' to the overall operation of the graphics subsystem.

THIS ... is the reason why the triple and quad GPU setups are showing bad scaling at this moment in time. I strongly believe that the issue has little or nothing to do with the new architecture or drivers or the games themselves wink.gif

As an aside, I believe that games don't 'care' how many GPU's are running them. IOW, there's no 'awareness', and there's no additional 'game coding' involved in making a game 'more compatible' with SLI, or tri-SLI, or quad SLI. They just have to be coded at a very simple, basic level, to support AFR.

Beyond that, the perf that results is all about the hardware and the drivers. However, the same hold true for the drivers ... drivers also don't 'care' whether you have 2, 3, or 4 gpu's. It's all just 'AFR' AFA the driver is concerned, TTBOMK.

Thus, I firmly believe that the scaling problems we're seeing with 3-4 GPU setups lately is all about GPU's getting way faster w/o a commensurate increase in CPU power.

As such, holding out hope that drivers are going to 'fix' these 'issues' is, IMHO, not logical. The only thing that's going to fix the issue is faster CPU's, and higher resolutions/AA levels thumb.gif

You're right, but the review in question doesn't just show bad scaling for Titan, the numbers for the 690/680s are also out of whack.
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post #72 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXXon View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post

I completely agree.

That's actually the problem with ALL tri-SLI/fire setups right now. So many people on these boards are under the impression that the technology or drivers is 'the problem', but that's really not it, IMHO.

I believe the primary problem is that since i7 came out 4 years ago, mainstream CPU's have only gotten about 40% faster (comparing like a 4-core, 8 thread Ivy vs a similar Nehalem at max OC's, i.e. 4.0-ish on Nehalem vs 5.0-ish on Ivy), yet over that same time period we've gone from GTX280 to friggin TITAN ... which is like 400% faster.

GPU tech has been basically been growing at an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE faster than CPU tech over the past 4 years. And exacerbating the issue is the fact that as you add more GPU's, the load on the CPU grows along with them. Every additional GPU adds a considerable amount of 'overhead' to the overall operation of the graphics subsystem.

THIS ... is the reason why the triple and quad GPU setups are showing bad scaling at this moment in time. I strongly believe that the issue has little or nothing to do with the new architecture or drivers or the games themselves wink.gif

As an aside, I believe that games don't 'care' how many GPU's are running them. IOW, there's no 'awareness', and there's no additional 'game coding' involved in making a game 'more compatible' with SLI, or tri-SLI, or quad SLI. They just have to be coded at a very simple, basic level, to support AFR.

Beyond that, the perf that results is all about the hardware and the drivers. However, the same hold true for the drivers ... drivers also don't 'care' whether you have 2, 3, or 4 gpu's. It's all just 'AFR' AFA the driver is concerned, TTBOMK.

Thus, I firmly believe that the scaling problems we're seeing with 3-4 GPU setups lately is all about GPU's getting way faster w/o a commensurate increase in CPU power.

As such, holding out hope that drivers are going to 'fix' these 'issues' is, IMHO, not logical. The only thing that's going to fix the issue is faster CPU's, and higher resolutions/AA levels thumb.gif

You're right, but the review in question doesn't just show bad scaling for Titan, the numbers for the 690/680s are also out of whack.

Okay admittedly I've not looked at the review, just the posts here redface.gif

But whatever issues we seen in this regard that we see with GK104, I'd expect to see with GK110 ... just a little bit more exacerbated, for the obvious reason that the latter is even more powerful.

I'll take a peep at the actual results, but in GENERAL ... I stand by what I said above thumb.gif
    
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post #73 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post

I completely agree.

That's actually the problem with ALL tri-SLI/fire setups right now. So many people on these boards are under the impression that the technology or drivers is 'the problem', but that's really not it, IMHO.

I believe the primary problem is that since i7 came out 4 years ago, mainstream CPU's have only gotten about 40% faster (comparing like a 4-core, 8 thread Ivy vs a similar Nehalem at max OC's, i.e. 4.0-ish on Nehalem vs 5.0-ish on Ivy), yet over that same time period we've gone from GTX280 to friggin TITAN ... which is like 400% faster.

GPU tech has been basically been growing at an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE faster than CPU tech over the past 4 years. And exacerbating the issue is the fact that as you add more GPU's, the load on the CPU grows along with them. Every additional GPU adds a considerable amount of 'overhead' to the overall operation of the graphics subsystem.

THIS ... is the reason why the triple and quad GPU setups are showing bad scaling at this moment in time. I strongly believe that the issue has little or nothing to do with the new architecture or drivers or the games themselves wink.gif

As an aside, I believe that games don't 'care' how many GPU's are running them. IOW, there's no 'awareness', and there's no additional 'game coding' involved in making a game 'more compatible' with SLI, or tri-SLI, or quad SLI. They just have to be coded at a very simple, basic level, to support AFR.

Beyond that, the perf that results is all about the hardware and the drivers. However, the same hold true for the drivers ... drivers also don't 'care' whether you have 2, 3, or 4 gpu's. It's all just 'AFR' AFA the driver is concerned, TTBOMK.

Thus, I firmly believe that the scaling problems we're seeing with 3-4 GPU setups lately is all about GPU's getting way faster w/o a commensurate increase in CPU power.

As such, holding out hope that drivers are going to 'fix' these 'issues' is, IMHO, not logical. The only thing that's going to fix the issue is faster CPU's, and higher resolutions/AA levels thumb.gif

Did you ever used Tri-Sli?

Ok, i will explain.... Current 6-core CPU's are not the bottlenecks for any GPU on the market.

When you gaming with 3-way SLI, any new fresh game almost every time IS NOT added in drivers and has no sli profile. What it cost...It cost performance and total mess with load on GPU's. Whatever configuration you have, it's not even easy to make it work on 3 gpu's with the same big load on every card. Sometimes you can find the SLI profile on the web, but usually it comes not in the first day, not in the release date...

New driver could add up to 30-40% of performance increase for some games. Usually it's much less, but it is.

When you changing the mode from different areas to single surround mode in 5760x1080, it's killing the desktop sometimes! For real, sometimes you cannot use that and RocketDock or something is sitting not on the center screen whatever you do (even when it setted up to the center screen in the program)

When you want to play some games and after you need three screens with YouTube video on the background, you making that fullscreen and....side monitors are black. It's impossible to use the different screens as different areas with surround, some windows are just "filling up" all area.

So....i have 3-way SLI and 3 monitors. And it's a gamers dream with problems, which are uknown for people who didn't tried that kind of setup.

The Result: when you have current most powerful CPU and 3-way SLI, there is NO ideas or thoughts that your CPU is a slowpoke. It's not....just a drivers and optimization problems. The last case is GPU ram, but now almost every top card could come with double amount of the ram for the future.

Don't belive me? Remember the first SLI configurations: up to 20-30$ increase....And now 70-80% is usual plus from the second card.
Edited by Master Freez - 3/2/13 at 12:47pm
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post #74 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Freez View Post

Did you ever used Tri-Sli?

Ok, i will explain.... Current 6-core CPU's are not the bottlenecks for any GPU on the market.

When you gaming with 3-way SLI, any new fresh game almost every time IS NOT added in drivers and has no sli profile. What it cost...It cost performance and total mess with load on GPU's. Whatever configuration you have, it's not even easy to make it work on 3 gpu's with the same big load on every card. Sometimes you can find the SLI profile on the web, but usually it comes not in the first day, not in the release date...

New driver could add up to 30-40% of performance increase for some games. Usually it's much less, but it is.

When you changing the mode from different areas to single surround mode in 5760x1080, it's killing the desktop sometimes! For real, sometimes you cannot use that and RocketDock or something is sitting not on the center screen whatever you do (even when it setted up to the center screen in the program)

When you want to play some games and after you need three screens with YouTube video on the background, you making that fullscreen and....side monitors are black. It's impossible to use the different screens as different areas with surround, some windows are just "filling up" all area.

So....i have 3-way SLI and 3 monitors. And it's a gamers dream with problems, which are uknown for people who didn't tried that kind of setup.

The Result: when you have current most powerful CPU and 3-way SLI, there is NO ideas or thoughts that your CPU is a slowpoke. It's not....just a drivers and optimization problems. The last case is GPU ram, but now almost every top card could come with double amount of the ram for the future.

Don't belive me? Remember the first SLI configurations: up to 20-30$ increase....And now 70-80% is usual plus from the second card.

Well, of course, if there's not a SLI profile in the driver, you're going to have problems with SLi no matter whether you have 2, 3, or 4 ... that's really a separate issue and not what I'm talking about. But a SLI profile is a SLi profile, regardless of how many GPU's you have. It's not like there's a 2-GPU SLi profile, AND one for 3 gpu's AND one for 4 gpu's. Now, the way the SLi profile is set up is important, and it needs to 'be there' ... but the profile works the 'same way' regardless of how many GPU's there actually are.

And frankly I reject the idea that 'Current 6-core CPU's are not the bottlenecks for any GPU on the market'. That's kinda the entire point I'm making. I don't believe that for one second, especially not when you're talking FOUR TITAN'S.

With ONE card, at very high resolutions and settings, sure. I'll go along with your statement. But the more high-end cards you add, the more likely it becomes that you're going to be CPU bottlenecked. And there's no CPU on the market that can ALWAYS keep up with Tri-SLI or above even with GK104 (let alone GK110) on an 'across the board' basis on every game, esp. if you're not running a surround resolution.
    
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post #75 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Freez View Post

Did you ever used Tri-Sli?

Ok, i will explain.... Current 6-core CPU's are not the bottlenecks for any GPU on the market.

When you gaming with 3-way SLI, any new fresh game almost every time IS NOT added in drivers and has no sli profile. What it cost...It cost performance and total mess with load on GPU's. Whatever configuration you have, it's not even easy to make it work on 3 gpu's with the same big load on every card. Sometimes you can find the SLI profile on the web, but usually it comes not in the first day, not in the release date...

New driver could add up to 30-40% of performance increase for some games. Usually it's much less, but it is.

When you changing the mode from different areas to single surround mode in 5760x1080, it's killing the desktop sometimes! For real, sometimes you cannot use that and RocketDock or something is sitting not on the center screen whatever you do (even when it setted up to the center screen in the program)

When you want to play some games and after you need three screens with YouTube video on the background, you making that fullscreen and....side monitors are black. It's impossible to use the different screens as different areas with surround, some windows are just "filling up" all area.

So....i have 3-way SLI and 3 monitors. And it's a gamers dream with problems, which are uknown for people who didn't tried that kind of setup.

The Result: when you have current most powerful CPU and 3-way SLI, there is NO ideas or thoughts that your CPU is a slowpoke. It's not....just a drivers and optimization problems. The last case is GPU ram, but now almost every top card could come with double amount of the ram for the future.

Don't belive me? Remember the first SLI configurations: up to 20-30$ increase....And now 70-80% is usual plus from the second card.

SLI scaling is currently more in the 90+% area, with being close too 100%. And most games released these days DO have proper sli support since sli has become so much increasingly popular, and sometimes needed in certain games. I have had sli setups 3 times so far: sli 275s, 480s, and now 670s. I have had zero issues so far. When I had my sli 275s I believe the scaling was around 60%. This is just my own personal experience though.
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post #76 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post

I completely agree.
snip:

i cannot help but wonder if its all cpu related. all reviews were done on the exact driver since only one is out. the only thing that separate them is the hardware.

i went through all the reviews, counted those who had weird results (sli beating 4way, titan beating sli etc) and the ones that i consider normal and not out of the ordinary (3way beating sli beating single titan, 2-3-4-way getting similar fps because of some fps cap in the games (not optimized))

here is what i discovered. all reviews except hardwareluxx had many weird moments. they all used weaker cpu. hardwareluxx had all benches completely normal and they had the fastest cpu. important note: hardwareluxx and techpowerup only tested 3 titans.

i cannot see anything else than cpu bottleneck. if it was drivers or bad game coding, hardwareluxx would also had some weird results. comments?

techpowerup:
CPU: i7 3820 4-core @ 4.3GHz

wierd results: IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII I
normal results: IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII I

52 game benches: 50% wierd results. 50% normal scaling

hardware.info
CPU: i7 3960X 6-core @ 3.9GHz

wierd results: IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII III
normal results: IIIII IIIII IIIII I
39 game benches: 60% weird results, 40% normal

hardwareluxx
CPU: i7 3960X 6-core @ 4.2GHz

normal results: IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII IIII
44 game benches: 100% normal results
Edited by HuaxShin - 3/2/13 at 2:26pm
post #77 of 131
CPU has a huge impact on sli/cfx. Even a difference of 300 MHz can impact overall graphic performance
     
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post #78 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomama22 View Post

CPU has a huge impact on sli/cfx. Even a difference of 300 MHz can impact overall graphic performance

I agree.

In Valley.

CPU at 4.6 GHZ = 140 fps
CPU at 5.0 GHZ = 150 fps

No change to GPU clock.
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post #79 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post


And if someone has an issue with a "lol 4000$", most likely is jealous. I know I am.

nocat.jpg

At the end of the day, it's your money, do what you please.

You want to attempt very high textures and all settings cranked up in Crysis 3 at 8000x1600 with silky smooth 60fps...go ahead...buy $2000+ worth of GPU.

Hell if I won the lottery/had sponsorships...I'd do the same.

I'm sure even top 1% of the wealthy and/or hardcore OCN members won't bother because they know hardware with similar performance will be out at a much lower price not too far in the distant future. Some of us are just perturbed nV is trying to gouge its enthusiasts by pricing this at a high profit margin...again this price would only make sense if it was a limited production like the ARES/MARS. It just goes to show nV's greed if competition doesn't exist...which is why I hope AMD will always stick around.
Edited by twitchyzero - 3/2/13 at 2:54pm
     
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post #80 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero View Post

nocat.jpg

At the end of the day, it's your money, do what you please.

You want to attempt very high textures and all settings cranked up in Crysis 3 at 8000x1600 with silky smooth 60fps...go ahead...buy $2000+ worth of GPU.

Hell if I won the lottery/had sponsorships...I'd do the same.

I'm sure even top 1% of the wealthy and/or hardcore OCN members won't bother because they know hardware with similar performance will be out at a much lower price not too far in the distant future. Some of us are just perturbed nV is trying to gouge its enthusiasts by pricing this at a high profit margin...again this price would only make sense if it was a limited production like the ARES/MARS. It just goes to show nV's greed if competition doesn't exist...which is why I hope AMD will always stick around.

The $550 7970 on release, and $1000 FX57 would like to have a word with you.

IF AMD could charge more for their products, they most certainly would. AMD didn't drop the price of the 7970 until AFTER the 680 was released, and even then, they didn't want to because the 680 was sold out everywhere initially. Competition drove the price of the 7970 down.

Hypothetically speaking, let's pretend that AMD released an 8970 today, and it was faster than Titan by 10%. Do you think AMD would price it at $500?

NVIDIA is well aware that AMD has no single GPU answer for Titan, and they're not releasing the 8xxx series until late this year. Even then, the 8970 may not match Titan's performance. Titan is delivering tomorrow's performance TODAY, and is coupled with unprecedented compute not seen before in a GTX card. Is it worth a $1000? Depends on who you ask.
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