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[Mashable] FCC to Investigate Legal Ban on Unlocking Cellphones - Page 2  

post #11 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

I partly agree with you (I am a HUGE proponent of getting government out of my life at nearly every turn), BUT the truth of the matter is, technically it ISN'T your phone.

The law does not apply to a cell phone that you pay FULL PRICE for. You can unlock them to your hearts content. The law pretty much only applies (set flame shields to max) to cell phones that you buy at a MASSIVELY reduced price with a 2 year commitment.
What it does is prevent people from going into an AT&T store, buying a $600 iPhone for $100 on a 2-year commitment then turn around and break the contract, pay the relatively small fee, unlock it, and the go over to T-mobile (etc).

The reality is, if you flat out buy the iPhone (or even a Galaxy S3 or what ever phone) and pay FULL price, you can unlock it IMMEDIATELY (because it is YOUR phone) and you won't run afoul of the law. Further, even if you buy the phone at the reduced price with a 2 year commitment, once that 2 year commitment is up, you can THEN unlock it and do with it as you will.
Further, this has nothing with voters. The ONE PERSON who made the change is James Hadley Billington. He is the Librarian of Congress, and was APPOINTED back in 1987 and has remained in place ever since. The Librarian of Congress isn't a position that is an elected office, and while technically not the same as The Supreme Court, traditionally, the Librarian, once appointed, stays as long as he wants (much like SCotUS). So while I blame voters for many things, this isn't one of them. He has remained Librarian through 5 Presidencies (Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and now Obama), so politics, and especially voting, has NOTHING to do with this.

Wow. So much truth in all of this guys quote. Sadly most people will go "but I want things for free or cheap. They're being greedy. I'm entitled." rolleyes.gif Stop playing their games people and you don't have to follow their rules. What is so hard about that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarin View Post

I was being sarcastic. Capitalism =/= corporate control. That would be Corporatism. (Notice how the words are not spelled the same.) This also is known as Corporatocracy, which is a type of government structure. Capitalism is an economic policy that attempts to exist largely independent of government and individual tampering. Additionally, the Librarian of Congress is a presidentially-appointed, Senate-approved, bureaucrat.

The interplay between government and private sector business is much more complicated and interwoven than, "Corporations are totally bad."

It's about time you realized this.

^Another great post. Again people only believe what they want to believe and no matter how much reality shows otherwise. Maybe some day they'll get it.
     
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post #12 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

I partly agree with you (I am a HUGE proponent of getting government out of my life at nearly every turn), BUT the truth of the matter is, technically it ISN'T your phone.

The law does not apply to a cell phone that you pay FULL PRICE for. You can unlock them to your hearts content. The law pretty much only applies (set flame shields to max) to cell phones that you buy at a MASSIVELY reduced price with a 2 year commitment. What it does is prevent people from going into an AT&T store, buying a $600 iPhone for $100 on a 2-year commitment then turn around and break the contract, pay the relatively small fee, unlock it, and the go over to T-mobile (etc).

The reality is, if you flat out buy the iPhone (or even a Galaxy S3 or what ever phone) and pay FULL price, you can unlock it IMMEDIATELY (because it is YOUR phone) and you won't run afoul of the law. Further, even if you buy the phone at the reduced price with a 2 year commitment, once that 2 year commitment is up, you can THEN unlock it and do with it as you will.

Nah, here in the EU, you OWN the phone. It is yours immediately. However,t he company has massive powers through the courts to force you to pull the full amount of the contract should you think about breaking it.

I.E. If you get a contract, then decide you're not paying anymore, the company can take you to court, the court will find in favour of the company and order you to pay the court costs, and the full amount of the contract immediately, and can assign bailiffs to recover the costs if you don't pay. I had a friend who thought he would do just that. Took out a contract on one network, unlocked the phone, then used his Pas As You Go SIM card and never paid for the phone. 6 months later he had a default judgement against him (as he ignored the letters) for £800. 2 months after that Bailiffs took his car (which was worthless) an he then decided to open up dialogue and agree a payment plan for the remaining £400 (the bailiffs sold his car at an auction, didn't get it's worth).

So, here, you own the phone immediately. It's yours, because you're fully liable for the costs of it. If that's not the case in the US, then the system is flawed.
Edited by Rubers - 3/3/13 at 7:54am
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post #13 of 39
The system totally is flawed, but then again this is a country where you wind up paying for a license to use a device on someone's terms and not the device itself. Sucks, but what're you gonna do, companies are greedy by nature. :/
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post #14 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

Nah, here in the EU, you OWN the phone. It is yours immediately. However,t he company has massive powers through the courts to force you to pull the full amount of the contract should you think about breaking it.

I.E. If you get a contract, then decide you're not paying anymore, the company can take you to court, the court will find in favour of the company and order you to pay the court costs, and the full amount of the contract immediately, and can assign bailiffs to recover the costs if you don't pay. I had a friend who thought he would do just that. Took out a contract on one network, unlocked the phone, then used his Pas As You Go SIM card and never paid for the phone. 6 months later he had a default judgement against him (as he ignored the letters) for £800. 2 months after that Bailiffs took his car (which was worthless) an he then decided to open up dialogue and agree a payment plan for the remaining £400 (the bailiffs sold his car at an auction, didn't get it's worth).

So, here, you own the phone immediately. It's yours, because you're fully liable for the costs of it. If that's not the case in the US, then the system is flawed.

Sounds like your system is flawed? In the US they just take your money....they don't have the authority to take your car or what not as far as I know. And you just described the fact that you don't own the phone. Otherwise you wouldn't have to worry about punitive action against you like you described happened to your friend.

I mean do you have the right to swap out parts on a car you leased? (Actually, I'd like to know because I don't.)
     
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post #15 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by LXXIII View Post

Voters are the only ones to blame.... Decades of voting for people who don't respect private property rights.

My phone, my body, my money, my property. HANDS OFF.

Please show us all where voters actually voted for corporate personhood, thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarin View Post

The interplay between government and private sector business is much more complicated and interwoven than, "Corporations are totally bad."

It's actually much simpler, it's called ownership. If the government wasn't a subsidiary of the corporations London, Brussels, Washington, all other Western capitals wouldn't be the most corrupt places on the planet. Politicians are corporate slaves.

Time you realised that.
Edited by Liranan - 3/3/13 at 8:04am
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post #16 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

Sounds like your system is flawed? In the US they just take your money....they don't have the authority to take your car or what not as far as I know. And you just described the fact that you don't own the phone. Otherwise you wouldn't have to worry about punitive action against you like you described happened to your friend.

I mean do you have the right to swap out parts on a car you leased? (Actually, I'd like to know because I don't.)

You are entirely incorrect.

1. Our system isn't flawed.

2. You own the phone. It's not leased. It's yours from the moment you take the contract.

The reason they can take you to court is because you have a legally binding contract with the company that states you will pay "£X.XX" per month and receive _______ services from the company". You are legally bound to pay them that money, within the contract, per month and they are legally bound, within the contract, to provide you with the services for the amount of time set out in the contract. If you do not pay, you still owe them the money. That debt is recognised by the courts. The COURT can order Bailiffs to recover the sums on behalf of the network.

In the event that you don't pay, the network don't care about the phone because it's not legally their property, it's yours. If your contract is £30 per month, for 24 months, and you have 20 months left on the contract. You owe them £600, not a phone. If they have to take you to court, you can end up owing them more. If you end up having to go to court, you must pay them the debt. The phone is yours the entire time. It is never theirs.

It is the same if you buy a car on credit. You can do what you want to the car. You own the car, but you now also own a debt (which you used ot buy the car). Sure, your car may be repossessed if you don't keep up to repayments, but that's because the car is an asset of yours, not because it belongs to the company.
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post #17 of 39
Nice to see the FCC is doing their job on the war against corporate-government corruption.
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post #18 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Please show us all where voters actually voted for corporate personhood, thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Wikipedia 
Corporate personhood is the legal concept that a corporation may sue and be sued in court in the same way as natural persons or unincorporated associations of persons. This doctrine in turn forms the basis for legal recognition that corporations, as groups of people, may hold and exercise certain rights under the common law and the U.S. Constitution. The doctrine does not hold that corporations are "people" in the most common usage of the word, nor does it grant to corporations all of the rights of citizens.
Since at least Trustees of Dartmouth College v. Woodward – 17 U.S. 518 (1819), the U.S. Supreme Court has recognized corporations as having the same rights as natural persons to contract and to enforce contracts. In Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad - 118 U.S. 394 (1886), the reporter noted in the headnote to the opinion that the Chief Justice began oral argument by stating, "The court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws, applies to these corporations. We are all of the opinion that it does."[1] While the headnote is not part of the Court's opinion and thus not precedent, two years later, in Pembina Consolidated Silver Mining Co. v. Pennsylvania - 125 U.S. 181 (1888), the Court clearly affirmed the doctrine, holding, "Under the designation of 'person' there is no doubt that a private corporation is included [in the Fourteenth Amendment]. Such corporations are merely associations of individuals united for a special purpose and permitted to do business under a particular name and have a succession of members without dissolution." [2] This doctrine has been reaffirmed by the Court many times since

You're opposed to this? Really?
post #19 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarin View Post

I was being sarcastic. Capitalism =/= corporate control. That would be Corporatism.

In a theoretical world where everyone is good and respects the system. We theoretically live in a capitalist system, but in reality, corporate needs are put before social needs, and political decisions are made based on who pays them more/gives them the most benefits. Not in a way to ensure the reliability and future proofing of the system and the satisfaction of the largest userbase of it (us).
   
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post #20 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Please show us all where voters actually voted for corporate personhood, thanks.
It's actually much simpler, it's called ownership. If the government wasn't a subsidiary of the corporations London, Brussels, Washington, all other Western capitals wouldn't be the most corrupt places on the planet. Politicians are corporate slaves.

Time you realised that.

You quoted me to refute a point I never made.

Corporations can exert such massive control over regulatory actions because there exists channels within the established bureaucracy to do so. The power of the federal government is directly dictated by the populace which choose to abdicate these powers. The motives behind any business are transparent and obvious. Should we really be surprised about the outcome when we put a tiger in a butcher shop? At what point do we stop trying to place blame on the tiger and start questioning why the butcher is even letting the tiger into their shop? Should we not demand a butcher who advocates a "no tiger" policy and uses regulatory measures such as door locks to keep said tiger out?

Your view of government is extremely narrow and rudimentary given your characterization of it. Keep in mind that a vast majority of the laws passed by Congress are extremely vague and non-specific, with reason. Regulatory groups are more or less empowered to "legislate" in this fashion. Bodies such as the SEC, FDA, FCC, etc are typically not given explicit instructions from the passed laws (unless there is a signing statement from the President). It is up to these groups to determine their own regulations and how to enforce them. Your day to day dealings with the government are with these bureaucratic groups. Those who head up these regulatory bureaucracies within the federal government are the result of presidential appointment and senate approval. This rabbit-hole goes even deeper, but this isn't really the place for that discussion. Suffice it to say that our regulatory, business, governmental interplay is not as simple as claiming ownership, "evil" corporate personhood (which most people don't understand), and pointing to some vague "corruption" in Western Capitols.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

In a theoretical world where everyone is good and respects the system. We theoretically live in a capitalist system, but in reality, corporate needs are put before social needs, and political decisions are made based on who pays them more/gives them the most benefits. Not in a way to ensure the reliability and future proofing of the system and the satisfaction of the largest userbase of it (us).

Capitalism does not rely on the morality of the economy, if proper regulations are kept in place in order to provide an equal and unchangeable market, it remains an extremely effective method of distributing resources. By its very definition those players in the market, within a Capitalistic model, must be price takers and not price makers (monopolies etc.) When we have excessive regulations that create barriers to entry or attempts by regulatory commissions to dictate demand curves and prices (a la socialistic central planning), we no longer have true capitalism.

TLDR: Yes, I agree that we are veering away from Capitalism because of the massive expansion of government control and the subsequent ability of this government to grant sweet-heart deals.
Edited by Solarin - 3/3/13 at 9:10am
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Rishloo
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