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post #21 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire View Post

Oh dear, oh dear.

The XSPC radiators are sold with different fans because the thin rads are high fin density that works best with high fan speeds, the thick rads are low FPI and are able to work well with lower speed fans.
It has nothing to do with the thickness.

The MCP355 is easily capable of providing sufficient flow to several components ... 3 waterblocks and 2 rads would be a doddle. It is all about the pressure they supply ... the flow rate they provide into free air is completely irrelevent. The 355 is much more capable than the X20 pump you referred to for example.

You have gotten hold of some seriously misguided information and assumptions. That's fine, believe what you want, but don't be telling better informed people who are trying to help that they are not.

Before policing the information and advice provided by others I would recommend doing a lot more reading and picking up more experience.

Surface Area.
I guess all the water cooling companies that sell pre built kits are confused then
Edited by MegaHertz - 3/5/13 at 7:14am
post #22 of 37
Okay, first of all, I am not too concerned with what the companies are selling. Ten years ago when I started WCing, a lot of companies were selling aluminium rads because they were cheap to make and people were buying it. Just because the industry sells something should be no indication of the scientific validity of their products. Aluminium rads were a very bad idea which caused galvatic corrosion on your copper blocks.

Now nobody wants to buy aluminium rads, so companies no longer sell them. They sell what the community wants. If the community wants the 'X' rad with the 'Y' fan, then that's what the companies will sell, no matter how wise it is to use the 'X' rad with the 'Y' fan

Now yes, fin count and rad thickness can increase your cooling up to a certain point. But fin count and rad thickness have a problem. The problem is that they create a lot of air friction and this causes the fans to work harder to push the air through the rad. That is not a problem with faster fans. But most water heads, including myself, don't want fast fans. We want slow fans, preferably below 1000 rpm.

So at under 1000 rpm the fans have a very hard time pushing the air through a thick rad with high fin count. A slim rad with low fin count is not a problem at all. And this is why the ST30 performs better than any other rads at slow speed. It is a thin 30mm rad with low fin count of 10 per inch . Have a look here for yourself and see if I am wrong.

To put it simply, the most important aspect of water cooling is fresh air intake. High fin count and rad thickness prohibit fresh air intake at low speeds because they are too restrictive for the weaker slow speed fans. If you want to see your high fin count and rad thickness shine, you need to pump more air into it at high speeds. But at low silent fan speeds, the thin rads with low fin count (a.k.a. the ST30) will always win.

Cheers cheers.gif
Edited by PepeLapiu - 3/5/13 at 7:45am
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post #23 of 37
@Pepe,

thanks Pepe, we all live and learn, I'm hoping the OP gets much useful information out of all our posts.

You might be right, but I still have to argue that Larger radiators still have more surface area and depending on your water pump and fans can dissipate more heat smile.gif
The reason I mentioned manufacturers is because many of the prebuilt companies are selling the thick+slow thin+fast setup and I assumed this was because the larger rads had more surface area and more fins which could dissipate more heat requiring less air flow ( considering the water flow would be enough )

Hey even I just learned my X20 750 gets about 5-6feet of pressure and that swiftech gets almost 20 smile.gif



@OP
Good luck with your buy, I'm interested in how your setup goes, I might consider adding a GPU block to my setup if my X20 can handle it smile.gif
post #24 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaHertz View Post

Surface Area.
I guess all the water cooling companies that sell pre built kits are confused then

The companies are not confused at all. Most water coolers want that so that's what the companies will sell to you. They want your money and they will only get it if they give you what you want.
What the companies sell is a function of how well informed the community is. If the community understood that thin rads with low FPI perform better, than the companies would sell those.

What the companies sell is a function of their marketing pitch in conjuction with your purchasing habit. This has nothing to do with the scientific validity of the products they sell.


If you though a monkey with a bald pink ass would better cool your rig, then companies would sell you a monkey with a bald pink ass.
Edited by PepeLapiu - 3/5/13 at 7:58am
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post #25 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

The companies are not confused at all. Most water coolers want that so that's what the companies will sell to you. They want your money and they will only get it if they give you what you want.
What the companies sell is a function of how well informed the community is. If the community understood that thin rads with low FPI perform better, than the companies would sell those.

If you though a monkey with a bald pink ass would better cool your rig, then companies would sell you a monkey with a bald pink ass.

Ok but If I have enough pressure, water moved, and static pressure plus speed on my fans

Would a thicker, larger radiator with higher fin density, and more surface area, not cool my water better?
post #26 of 37
Thread Starter 
I appreciate the information from both sides of the table and some other posts that have prompted me to post my continuing questions.

If I am only able to do a 1 Dual 140mm or 120mm Rad:
Can I do 2 water blocks setup?: cpu (i5 3570 Ivy Bridge Overclock from 3.4 to 3.8) and gpu (Gigabyte Radeon HD 7950)
If I need to add another rad it would either be a Single 140mm or 120mm rad
What rad(s) and fan(s) for a push/pull setup?

I know there has been much discussion about the pump (and rad/fans). I am looking to spend between $75-$100 on a good pump with 1/2" fittings. If I need to spend more which one? I know the MCP 355 had 3/8" but I was going to change the top to get the 1/2" fittings. So I am looking to do 1/2" tubing unless YOU believe 3/8" is better. From what I read 1/2" is better.

For the 2 water blocks and reservoir I am pretty set on the makes and models.

Also, I was looking at quick disconnects. Where is the best location to set up a pair (at the reservoir?)?

If not (1 Dual rad does not work)and/or if the cost is to much to another a 2nd Rad, what heatsink/fan do you recommend?

thanks for all your suggestions.
Bocko
post #27 of 37
I have been running the XSPC pump+res combo that pumps water through a CPU and two GPU blocks. No problem so far - except a pump+res combo is a PITA to isolate for vibrations. For now, I built a hammock with rubber material and let it just swing! Actually, the problem is more my hard drive cage which is a rickety mess. The pump has to touch it and it screams and cries. God I am waiting for the day to take the hammer to it! Now that is called letting out frustration biggrin.gif
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post #28 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaHertz View Post

Would a thicker, larger radiator with higher fin density, and more surface area, not cool my water better?

That all depends on how fast you want your fans to run at. Again, at sub 1000 rpm the fans do not develop enough static pressure to push the air through a thick high FPI rad.

I recommend the UT60 for high speed fans above 1000 rpm and if you want low speed fans, I recommend the ST30.

Go with the thickest rad you can fit, but make sure you go with push/pull. Push/pull is more important than any rad thickness. A slim rad in push/pull will perform better than a thick rad in push or pull alone.
For fans, I recommend the Gentle Typhoon fans. They have the best noise to static pressure ratio.

And forget about fin count. High fin count rads need speeds above 3000 rpm to perform well. If you can put up with the noise of 3-4000 rpm fans, then.go for it.

To put in simply, more surface area will result in more friction for the air. When there is more air friction, that reduces the air flow. And fresh air flow is by far the most critical part of water cooling.
So higher surface area is only useful at high fan speeds. At low fan speed, you want low fin.count, slim rads, and low surface area to allow the weak slow fans to do their work.

Cheers cheers.gif
Edited by PepeLapiu - 3/5/13 at 9:21am
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post #29 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by bocko57 View Post

I appreciate the information from both sides of the table and some other posts that have prompted me to post my continuing questions.

If I am only able to do a 1 Dual 140mm or 120mm Rad:
Can I do 2 water blocks setup?: cpu (i5 3570 Ivy Bridge Overclock from 3.4 to 3.8) and gpu (Gigabyte Radeon HD 7950)
If I need to add another rad it would either be a Single 140mm or 120mm rad
What rad(s) and fan(s) for a push/pull setup?

I know there has been much discussion about the pump (and rad/fans). I am looking to spend between $75-$100 on a good pump with 1/2" fittings. If I need to spend more which one? I know the MCP 355 had 3/8" but I was going to change the top to get the 1/2" fittings. So I am looking to do 1/2" tubing unless YOU believe 3/8" is better. From what I read 1/2" is better.

For the 2 water blocks and reservoir I am pretty set on the makes and models.

Also, I was looking at quick disconnects. Where is the best location to set up a pair (at the reservoir?)?

If not (1 Dual rad does not work)and/or if the cost is to much to another a 2nd Rad, what heatsink/fan do you recommend?

thanks for all your suggestions.
Bocko

I have to get back to work, I will be replying to this post more in depth later tonight.

Cheers cheers.gif
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post #30 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by bocko57 View Post

I appreciate the information from both sides of the table and some other posts that have prompted me to post my continuing questions.

If I am only able to do a 1 Dual 140mm or 120mm Rad:
Can I do 2 water blocks setup?

A 120.2 rad should get you somewhat better temps than air cooling. But I think that is a strick minimum. Try to get more raddage if you can. I recommend 120mm rads over 140mm ones. I know it sounds weird but the 120mm ones perform slightly better due to the fans. Thete just aren't any good 140mm fans at the moment.

:
Quote:
cpu (i5 3570 Ivy Bridge Overclock from 3.4 to 3.8) and gpu (Gigabyte Radeon HD 7950)
If I need to add another rad it would either be a Single 140mm or 120mm rad
What rad(s) and fan(s) for a push/pull setup?

I recommend 120mm rads, Alphacool if possible as they are the best performers. And Gentle Typhoon fans ftw. Always go with push/pull even if you have to go down in rad thickness to accommodate fan space.
Quote:
I know there has been much discussion about the pump (and rad/fans). I am looking to spend between $75-$100 on a good pump with 1/2" fittings. If I need to spend more which one? I know the MCP 355 had 3/8" but I was going to change the top to get the 1/2" fittings. So I am looking to do 1/2" tubing unless YOU believe 3/8" is better. From what I read 1/2" is better.

Once again, your pump is good for your rig. Get a top if you want.

Tube size really doesn't matter. Go with your taste and what you think would look better. As long as you keep tube ID above 3/8" you are fine.
Quote:
For the 2 water blocks and reservoir I am pretty set on the makes and models.

Also, I was looking at quick disconnects. Where is the best location to set up a pair (at the reservoir?)?

If not (1 Dual rad does not work)and/or if the cost is to much to another a 2nd Rad, what heatsink/fan do you recommend?

thanks for all your suggestions.
Bocko

I don't know about the QDC fittings. You would have to show up where and how your loop will be arranged. And what's the QDC fittings for anyway? Why do you need 3 of them?

Also, if you just don't have the room in your rig but you still want more rads, just check this out to add an other easy 120.3 rad.
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