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post #2671 of 20767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullwipe View Post

I'm really starting to wonder what percentage of these people are unknowingly using voltage control. That's the one caveat with the H220, it's designed to be a simple kit, and that may attract those who don't often venture into the BIOS/UEFI.

this. and the fact that a lot of people interested in the device posting here dont know that plugging it in to a 3 pin fan controller will cause problems. (No offense to potential users, but just know what you're buying and how to use it thumb.gif)
 
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post #2672 of 20767
I think you guys are oversimplifying the issue quite a bit. Most people who are even interested in this type of product are more technical than you are giving them credit for. I think Swiftech has some issues they need to work out as they refine the process. No need to make excuses for them.
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post #2673 of 20767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleat View Post

I think you guys are oversimplifying the issue quite a bit. Most people who are even interested in this type of product are more technical than you are giving them credit for. I think Swiftech has some issues they need to work out as they refine the process. No need to make excuses for them.

It is possible, but my initial reaction is "Really????".

You don't seem to see a statistical anomaly from users having multiple pumps fail in the same manner in a row but ONLY specific users? Swiftech has already reported lower RMA rates than most normal production runs, even including the issues with pump blockage and this being the first run of the H220.

Could they do something to improve this product? Certainly, but I wouldn't go all doom and gloom on them just yet because of a few vocal and unfortunate customers.
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post #2674 of 20767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleat View Post

I think you guys are oversimplifying the issue quite a bit. Most people who are even interested in this type of product are more technical than you are giving them credit for. I think Swiftech has some issues they need to work out as they refine the process. No need to make excuses for them.

Not making excuses. I only bring it up due to posts I've seen in this thread, a number of people have confused the H220 as being a CLC like the Corsair and NZXT products. There are most certainly issues, especially with the early units having debris of some kind in the loop. But the chances of the same people having multiple quality control related pump failures are very small. I've not seen anyone who's gotten an H220 from the "intercepted" batch who's flushed the unit and found debris, not to say that debris can be only cause of pump noise and/or failure.

I know my Gigabyte Z77 board defaulted to "Automatic" CPU Fan control, I had to manually set it to PWM. Now I have no clue what leaving it in automatic would do, but there's a chance it would apply voltage control of some kind.

Others highlighting potential issues, some of which could be easily over looked, is one of the reasons I personally come to these forums, and I hope myself and other in this thread doing the same may help some users.
post #2675 of 20767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleat View Post

I think you guys are oversimplifying the issue quite a bit. Most people who are even interested in this type of product are more technical than you are giving them credit for. I think Swiftech has some issues they need to work out as they refine the process. No need to make excuses for them.

people might know how to build a computer and water cooling loop but dont know the nuances between things like PWM and voltage control on a 4 pin header (the simple fact is i bet a lot of people see 4 pin and assume it's PWM). It's why we get the occasional person in this thread still asking if its ok to connect it to a external fan controller (that most likely isnt PWM).

i think there's also probably some QA adjustments also that need to be done, but nothing crazy. My 2nd pump is still good *knock on wood*
 
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post #2676 of 20767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avonosac View Post

It is possible, but my initial reaction is "Really????".

You don't seem to see a statistical anomaly from users having multiple pumps fail in the same manner in a row but ONLY specific users? Swiftech has already reported lower RMA rates than most normal production runs, even including the issues with pump blockage and this being the first run of the H220.

Could they do something to improve this product? Certainly, but I wouldn't go all doom and gloom on them just yet because of a few vocal and unfortunate customers.

I think it would be nice to get some testing information from Swiftech (or a brave soul) on the effects of running the pump on voltage regulation. I really wouldn't consider my post doom and gloom. As I said, they need to continue to refine the manufacturing process.

It does seem that most of the issues can be solved by a flush and refill which is great. I am sure many people (including myself) have solved the pump issues by doing this. However, this doesn't help provide an accurate picture for Swiftech on what percentage of the units are actually having issues as these won't come in on RMA's. The fundamental problem is that the unit is being sold as a "closed loop" cooling system that shouldn't need maintenance for 3 years.

With how active Swiftech has been with all of this, I would imagine the actual defective numbers should soon fall in line with other closed loop cooling systems. Overall, I think this is a good product that just needs some time to mature.

Edit: I do know that Swiftech has specifically said that this pump is not meant to run on voltage control, but it would be interesting to see how detrimental the effects are. I would agree that it does seem suspicious that someone could have three bad units in a row, but I wouldn't completely rule it out. The possibility of user error is there in every situation though.
Edited by Fleat - 5/14/13 at 9:04am
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post #2677 of 20767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleat View Post

I think it would be nice to get some testing information from Swiftech (or a brave soul) on the effects of running the pump on voltage regulation.

http://www.swiftech.com/pwmcontrollers.aspx
Quote:
Pulse-width modulation of DC operating voltage to modify fan speed [edit: in PWM devices] is not recommended. Transients generated by that approach can irreversibly damage motor commutation and control electronics and dramatically shorten the life of a fan.

nidec servo (manufacturer of Gentle Typhoons, and many other fans) even says voltage modulation of pwm devices isnt recommended. more complex electronics are sensitive to voltage, and a PWM fan isnt simply a motor. It's why cars with a lot electronics will often go crazy when their battery or alternator fails to provide proper voltage. it makes sense.
Edited by ez12a - 5/14/13 at 9:09am
 
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post #2678 of 20767
Quote:
Originally Posted by ez12a View Post

http://www.swiftech.com/pwmcontrollers.aspx
nidec servo (manufacturer of Gentle Typhoons, and many other fans) even says voltage modulation of pwm devices isnt recommended. more complex electronics are sensitive to voltage, and a PWM fan isnt simply a motor. It's why cars with a lot electronics will often go crazy when their battery or alternator fails to provide proper voltage. it makes sense.

Yes, I understand the differences quite well and that information is certainly useful. Like I said in my edit above, I know that Swiftech advises against this, but stress testing it on voltage regulation doesn't seem like a terrible idea as this is likely to happen from time to time. This would help verify the symptoms that may occur in this situation and inevitably help diagnose problems.
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post #2679 of 20767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleat View Post

I think it would be nice to get some testing information from Swiftech (or a brave soul) on the effects of running the pump on voltage regulation. I really wouldn't consider my post doom and gloom. As I said, they need to continue to refine the manufacturing process.

It does seem that most of the issues can be solved by a flush and refill which is great. I am sure many people (including myself) have solved the pump issues by doing this. However, this doesn't help provide an accurate picture for Swiftech on what percentage of the units are actually having issues as these won't come in on RMA's. The fundamental problem is that the unit is being sold as a "closed loop" cooling system that shouldn't need maintenance for 3 years.

With how active Swiftech has been with all of this, I would imagine the actual defective numbers should soon fall in line with other closed loop cooling systems. Overall, I think this is a good product that just needs some time to mature.

Edit: I do know that Swiftech has specifically said that this pump is not meant to run on voltage control, but it would be interesting to see how detrimental the effects are. I would agree that it does seem suspicious that someone could have three bad units in a row, but I wouldn't completely rule it out. The possibility of user error is there in every situation though.

Bram and gabe have both posted numbers of their RMA / Defect numbers and it was strikingly low, as in already in line or below other CLC. To me the biggest issue is it looks like this pump's electronics might be VERY sensitivy to voltage modulation. If a users board is able to kill a pump within hours, and a couple weeks this could be the reason.
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post #2680 of 20767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avonosac View Post

Bram and gabe have both posted numbers of their RMA / Defect numbers and it was strikingly low, as in already in line or below other CLC. To me the biggest issue is it looks like this pump's electronics might be VERY sensitivy to voltage modulation. If a users board is able to kill a pump within hours, and a couple weeks this could be the reason.

As I mentioned in my post, I think those RMA numbers are a bit skewed by people actually "fixing" it with a flush / refill which shouldn't be necessary for a CLC. I don't really intend to repeat my previous post, but I really think it would be essential to test how sensitive the pump is to voltage modulation.
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