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[Verge] EU fines Microsoft over $730 million for failing to include browser ballot in Windows 7 SP1 - Page 11  

post #101 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shmerrick View Post

I don't get this really. I understand that they want to have diversity on the browser market, but IE is required for GP to correctly manage site settings over an entire network.

Not entirely:

http://pdtechguru.wordpress.com/2012/09/25/google-chrome-group-policy/

And thanks to these cases, for sure thumb.gif
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post #102 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post

If MS had 10% if the market share when all this went down, you are saying that no one would have cared? No problem with IE exclusive Windows?
That is correct.

The issue is NOT that Windows had IE.
The issue is that Microsoft used Windows' monolopy of the desktop to block other browsers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Dreams View Post

Huh? I'm posting my opinion of what I believe this to be. I thought it was OK and even welcomed to post ones thoughts in a discussion? If not let me know chief and in the future I'll be sure to run anything I might want to post past you in PM, cool?
Did you bother reading or understanding what is going on first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post

I gave the 2 options of paying or reverse engineering as options, not practices. I guess what I meant to say is that the APIs that MS releases for the OS are a gift. They have no legal responsibility to allow anyone access to their coding. Why should they? If no one can create a better product to compete, How is that MS's fault?
MS publishes API documentation.... otherwise how would programs run on them? If no one develops applications for your OS, then why would anyone use your OS? So MS already set precedent of providing API docs.... except when it came to networking. Why? Was there a technical reason? Does MS willfully make it hard for 3rd party FTP, text editors, video games, etc work on their OS? So.... why did they do so with browsers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

There are no set "standards" as required in automotive manufacturing. Heck, they aren't even required to us the same nuts and bolts (US vs Metric). Heck, some cars use BOTH. They can change panels and designs when ever they feel like it. There is no requirement to make a Chevy engine fit in a Ford either. In fact, without extensive modification, they WON'T.

As far as "measurements" vs "black box poking", are you actually saying that you can't fire up a compiler and start chewing code and see if it works? Sorry, but the example is much closer than you are willing to admit.

In both, there are no "standards" that require interchangeability in either cars or computers. You can do what ever you want in either (see the tag in my sig), but it's on you. Why people think that it is "ok" for one industry to be one way and the other industry another, is silly.

And as far as your hint at a "US Regulation about service", if you are hinting at ODB II ... you might want to just stop there. That is about as "required" as the MPAA rating system. It is a completely voluntary standard. Before you go down the road of what MIGHT happen by the government in the future, you might want to stop ... or give me this weeks Lotto Number, because both are most likely to be equally accurate.
Bingo

Of course, but there are "de facto" standards.... like metric and English. The fact that there are 3rd party parts demostrates the relative ease of building compatible parts. As far as ODB-II, then the reality better supports my point. Car companies are making it harder to get data from their systems. If.... and I said If.... it can be proven that they are doing it without technical merit AND they own the a significant marketshare, then they could be charge with anti-trust.

You could attempt to reverse engineer the software, but unlike a car.... a company could modify the software after purchase and overtime. A 3rd part would never be able to keep up within reasonable resources.

Actually, there are literally thousands of computer standards and dozens of standards organization.... ATX, TCP/IP, POSIX, Java API, SATA, PCIe, ....
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post #103 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

Again, you have no understanding of the law or how these things work.

Again, this statement absolutely means nothing. EXPLAIN like a person. Reason. counter point. Provide evidence. Simply saying that "I have no understanding" is really just a patronizing remark. STOP!
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post #104 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

What browser are you using? As much as I agree that the EU has reason to fine Microsoft, I don't see them forcing users to use their browser outside of maybe using it to download a different one. They don't "restrict" you on how to use the internet.

Does Apple come pre-installed with safari? Oh wait.

The difference between apple and microsoft was market share at the time when microsoft agreed to include other browsers. They basically had a monopoly, could be argued now as well but it was much much worse back then. And because of the marketshare of windows the actions of MS in the browser 'market' were viewed as anti competitive.

There should be no leniency between competitors when it comes down to the laws being enforced. If Apple can't get their crap together and be able to compete then that's not MS problem. This is an anti-trust issue, nothing more, nothing less. MS promised something and they didn't deliver.
post #105 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

Yet another uninformed and ignorant post!

1. No-one is suing. They are being fined for breaching an agreement they signed.
2. When this was started (1999) the internet was a very different place.
3. Since then, because of this case, the internet is now the place we know and love. It would be very different were it not for the results of this case and the US case.

Rubbers is right. This whole thing is really just a hangover from times past. It's unfortunate that it has to land now, like this, but it is what it is. Either way, thanks to what happened in the US, we have this.

Though, the US case was a bit different. Web browsers are generally free, downloadable, and have good compatability. The US's problem with MS was that they were bundling premium software with their OS at a price to crush the competition, both on the Office programs front and OS front.
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post #106 of 300
Except Apple shipped with IE at the time we are talking about from system 8 to OSX 10.2

Safari didn't become the default browser until 10.3


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_5
 
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post #107 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

That is correct.

The issue is NOT that Windows had IE.
The issue is that Microsoft used Windows' monolopy of the desktop to block other browsers.
MS publishes API documentation.... otherwise how would programs run on them? If no one develops applications for your OS, then why would anyone use your OS? So MS already set precedent of providing API docs.... except when it came to networking. Why? Was there a technical reason? Does MS willfully make it hard for 3rd party FTP, text editors, video games, etc work on their OS? So.... why did they do so with browsers?
Of course, but there are "de facto" standards.... like metric and English. The fact that there are 3rd party parts demostrates the relative ease of building compatible parts. As far as ODB-II, then the reality better supports my point. Car companies are making it harder to get data from their systems. If.... and I said If.... it can be proven that they are doing it without technical merit AND they own the a significant marketshare, then they could be charge with anti-trust.

You could attempt to reverse engineer the software, but unlike a car.... a company could modify the software after purchase and overtime. A 3rd part would never be able to keep up within reasonable resources.

Actually, there are literally thousands of computer standards and dozens of standards organization.... ATX, TCP/IP, POSIX, Java API, SATA, PCIe, ....

DuckieHo - first of all thanks for answering my questions and discussing this.

Since you agree that if MS wasn't a monopoly and broke compatibility with other browsers it wouldn't be unlawful, we can agree that it is not innately unlawful to do so. But it has everything to do with being a monopoly. Now while I agree that monopolies are not a good think. I don't agree with the way this was all handled, because it ruins competition. Ideally these other companies should have created their own OS at some point. Then what would have happened is that these OS's would be competing for market share by being more compatible than what we have now....where the more exclusive, the better. Now we have 2 or 3 giants creating a isolated eco systems. But instead we could have had more OS's competing for market share and the loser would be the one that is less compatible with the others because there are so many options
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post #108 of 300
Okay, I E belongs to Microsoft . So its a part of their build. Yes! I am telling myself this because I cannot see what the fuss is all about! biggrin.gif

Its like telling Ford the car manufactures to put a Nissan part on it, or a BMW part and so on.

I use Mozilla, my choice.

Good luck Billy, I know the money side is not going to hurt you, but this fine is morally wrong, and send me a free copy of the next edition of windows for backing you up thumb.gif
post #109 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purger View Post

Rubbers is right. This whole thing is really just a hangover from times past. It's unfortunate that it has to land now, like this, but it is what it is. Either way, thanks to what happened in the US, we have this.

Though, the US case was a bit different. Web browsers are generally free, downloadable, and have good compatability. The US's problem with MS was that they were bundling premium software with their OS at a price to crush the competition, both on the Office programs front and OS front.

Browsers weren't free at that time..browser really didn't become free until the open sourcing of Netscape
 
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post #110 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post

DuckieHo - first of all thanks for answering my questions and discussing this.

Since you agree that if MS wasn't a monopoly and broke compatibility with other browsers it wouldn't be unlawful, we can agree that it is not innately unlawful to do so. But it has everything to do with being a monopoly. Now while I agree that monopolies are not a good think. I don't agree with the way this was all handled, because it ruins competition. Ideally these other companies should have created their own OS at some point. Then what would have happened is that these OS's would be competing for market share by being more compatible than what we have now....where the more exclusive, the better. Now we have 2 or 3 giants creating a isolated eco systems. But instead we could have had more OS's competing for market share and the loser would be the one that is less compatible with the others because there are so many options

The way this was handled gave us competition in browsers..and gave us internet "standards" not just whatever MS wanted.
 
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