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[Verge] EU fines Microsoft over $730 million for failing to include browser ballot in Windows 7 SP1 - Page 18  

post #171 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

^ You still focus on this choice thing. Still haven't read the rulings and the case information presented to you by DuckieHo, so you're still making the same assertions based on erroneous ideas!

I'm already past the ruling. It is what it is. I've moved on to other things ... like talking about the world as it is now. Is that ok with you?
post #172 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

I absolutely understand the Libertarian viewpoint... which is why I'm vehemently opposed to that kind of talk happening in our world.
Nature might've favoured Darwinism, but society doesn't

wink.gif
Their are not Libertarian, they actively put the needs of companies above all others including themselves because it's "right". Libertarians tend to are much more hands off..
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Today or 10 years ago, or even 17 years ago when I registered my first domain name, it doesn't matter. You had CHOICES in installing a web browser on your machine. I know, I was there.

Actually you didn't Mosaic was unix only for a LONG time, Cello was MS **edit** and Warp..Web Explorer was Warp only

Later we had Netscape which reached big time dominance almost 90% if I remember correctly until MS wrote a browser and strong-armed PC OEM's…

I've drunk a lot of booze and done more than a few illicit drugs since 1992 but I remember this stuff pretty clearly
Edited by GermanyChris - 3/6/13 at 11:07am
 
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post #173 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by dranas View Post

Wouldn't MS need to get a license agreement from every browser manufacture in order to distribute it with their OS? The EU can't force those companies to grant said license either.

It wouldn't be much of a force. Having Microsoft show your name and product would normally cost tens of millions of dollars in advertising. Basically the EU is telling Microsoft "Too bad, so sad, you must help other companies compete with you and save them tens of millions of dollars in advertising". Now I'm sure TV, Radio, Print, and tons of other internet sites who rely on advertising dollars won't like it either. But hey, the EU doesn't care about that.
post #174 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post

I agree...it's such a backwards way to handle all this. They shold have had MS just pay settlements to all the companies they gimped. But instead they gimped MS. I'm not a monopoly fan or a discretely MS fan. Just a fan or fairness. I hope things like this dont happen in the future. Both the unethical business practices and the business sanction that is basically forced conflict of interest. But hey...it could be worse, they could be making online save only games with pay to win DLC in the name of DRM and over charging for them.
Except damage was already done... Netscape was basically dead by the time everything was done. Even if they got $300M, they couldn't claw marketshare back in time to survive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Today or 10 years ago, or even 17 years ago when I registered my first domain name, it doesn't matter. You had CHOICES in installing a web browser on your machine. I know, I was there
Why did everyone some many people AOL in 1995?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

... In YOUR opinion. I bet you think it's wrong to take a job just because you have a college degree and someone else who is applying for the same job doesn't. I bet you also think it is wrong for a hot looking woman to not date fat and ugly men as opposed to a rich guy who looks like Brad Pitt. Welcome to the world of EVERYONE uses every advantage they have to achieve what they want.
No, it's the law... so it therefore is the opinion of the government which is established by the people. In addition, it is the law of most developed countries. There is good reason to stop monoplies from exercise their power gained from only size.

It's called economics. Allowing companies to do whatever they want hurts the consumer and wastes resources.



Where do you come up with the rest of the nonsense?




Quote:
Originally Posted by dranas View Post

Wouldn't MS need to get a license agreement from every browser manufacture in order to distribute it with their OS? The EU can't force those companies to grant said license either.
No.... they only provide an interface to get the browsers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

It wouldn't be much of a force. Having Microsoft show your name and product would normally cost tens of millions of dollars in advertising. Basically the EU is telling Microsoft "Too bad, so sad, you must help other companies compete with you and save them tens of millions of dollars in advertising". Now I'm sure TV, Radio, Print, and tons of other internet sites who rely on advertising dollars won't like it either. But hey, the EU doesn't care about that.
Your premise is wrong. You are confusing cause and effect.

The EU is telling Microsoft "Too bad, so sad, you must help other companies compete with you and save them tens of millions of dollars in advertising because this is punishment for breaking the law already.".

There is a sunset clause on this though.
Edited by DuckieHo - 3/6/13 at 11:15am
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post #175 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post

Actually you didn't Mosaic was unix only for a LONG time, Cello was MS only..Web Explorer was Warp only

Later we had Netscape which reached big time dominance almost 90% if I remember correctly until MS wrote a browser and strong-armed PC OEM's…

I've drunk a lot of booze and done more than a few illicit drugs since 1992 but I remember this stuff pretty clearly

You are forgetting about "Internet in a Box", which ran on Windows back in 1994. That was A/R Mosaic. Then Netscape came on the scene in '94. Then Internet Explorer in '95. That doesn't even take into account all the various ports to platforms on Amiga, OS/2, Mac, etc.
post #176 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by dranas View Post

Wouldn't MS need to get a license agreement from every browser manufacture in order to distribute it with their OS? The EU can't force those companies to grant said license either.

They don't distribute. They simply link to the browser download page.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

I'm already past the ruling. It is what it is. I've moved on to other things ... like talking about the world as it is now. Is that ok with you?

No, you were saying that 13 years ago you had choices. And the problem wasn't a lack of choice. You had a choice of browsers all right, which is why MS started to gimp them severely in order to gain a foothold in the market.... You were not talking about the world as it is now. Either way you were wrong.

The forced choice is a punishment for being anti-competitive. So if you're going to say "But you HAVE got a CHOICE today" and so on... what is your point? Of course you have a choice of browsers (thanks to this ruling, of course) but the forced choice is a punishment.
Edited by Rubers - 3/6/13 at 11:15am
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post #177 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

No, it's the law... so it therefore is the opinion of the government which is established by the people.

Ah, so once again we are back to the "It is right because it's the law" argument ... and to make matters worse, you now mention government, which is the BIGGEST monopoly of them all. rolleyes.gif
post #178 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Today or 10 years ago, or even 17 years ago when I registered my first domain name, it doesn't matter. You had CHOICES in installing a web browser on your machine. I know, I was there.
... In YOUR opinion. I bet you think it's wrong to take a job just because you have a college degree and someone else who is applying for the same job doesn't. I bet you also think it is wrong for a hot looking woman to not date fat and ugly men as opposed to a rich guy who looks like Brad Pitt. Welcome to the world of EVERYONE uses every advantage they have to achieve what they want.

This all came before I ever even saw a computer, but if I remember my history correctly the choices remained...but MS did everything EXCEPT block the installs of other browsers on Windows. However there were reported issues with the operation of Netscape though I don't know if it was ever soundly proven that it was due to deliberate actions of Microsoft. I do know they did all sorts of shady stuff like pressure OEMs to keep the IE icon on the desktop and not put the Navigator icon there...this went so far as even threatening to revoke the Windows licensing given the OEMs which would have shut them down.

Netscape basically had a monopoly on browsers...and people had to pay for it. Then MS used their monopoly on the operating system to force their way into the browser market...and all they did was kill off Netscape to have a hydra of competition take their place and they are still paying for those actions today.
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post #179 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

I do know they did all sorts of shady stuff like pressure OEMs to keep the IE icon on the desktop and not put the Navigator icon there...this went so far as even threatening to revoke the Windows licensing given the OEMs which would have shut them down.

Yup, they did that, and I mentioned it before.

If you want to be an OEM and get the nice price discounts, you have to abide by the terms put forth in the license agreement, which was "Only Microsoft products". If you didn't want to abide by the terms of the license, no one stopped you from putting Netscape on a PC ... you just wouldn't get a fat discount price for Microsoft products. The choice was yours. But people were GREEDY, they wanted to get cheap software AND install what they wanted as an OEM, which is (to borrow a term that Rubbers and Duckie love to say) WRONG.
post #180 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

This all came before I ever even saw a computer, but if I remember my history correctly the choices remained...but MS did everything EXCEPT block the installs of other browsers on Windows. However there were reported issues with the operation of Netscape though I don't know if it was ever soundly proven that it was due to deliberate actions of Microsoft. I do know they did all sorts of shady stuff like pressure OEMs to keep the IE icon on the desktop and not put the Navigator icon there...this went so far as even threatening to revoke the Windows licensing given the OEMs which would have shut them down.

Netscape basically had a monopoly on browsers...and people had to pay for it. Then MS used their monopoly on the operating system to force their way into the browser market...and all they did was kill off Netscape to have a hydra of competition take their place and they are still paying for those actions today.

That's about it. MS even admitted the wrongdoing, also. However, it was Opera that brought the complaint. Netscape was done and dusted by the time of the complaint.
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