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[Verge] EU fines Microsoft over $730 million for failing to include browser ballot in Windows 7 SP1 - Page 19  

post #181 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

You are forgetting about "Internet in a Box", which ran on Windows back in 1994. That was A/R Mosaic. Then Netscape came on the scene in '94. Then Internet Explorer in '95. That doesn't even take into account all the various ports to platforms on Amiga, OS/2, Mac, etc.

There was no various ports Mosaic was it for non MS products until Netscape, and mosaic was not quickly ported because the dev didn't want anything to do the cluster the Mac OS in those days..

IBox wasn't a computer it was a hub, it only worked if you had a real computer..technically a browser you are correct there was no IE at that time…IE didn't launch until '95
 
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post #182 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Same goes for the auto industry.

So, I will ask you again. When was the last time you went into a Ford Dealership and told them to put a Chevy 454 engine (or your choice of 11 other companies engines) in a Mustang and they had to comply ... just like the EU told Microsoft to do with the web browser?

That doesn't really stand as a good example. Auto standards DO in fact exist, such as OBD standards.
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post #183 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Yup, they did that, and I mentioned it before.

If you want to be an OEM and get the nice price discounts, you have to abide by the terms put forth in the license agreement, which was "Only Microsoft products". If you didn't want to abide by the terms of the license, no one stopped you from putting Netscape on a PC ... you just wouldn't get a fat discount price for Microsoft products. The choice was yours. But people were GREEDY, they wanted to get cheap software AND install what they wanted as an OEM, which is (to borrow a term that Rubbers and Duckie love to say) WRONG.

Right, like Intel said to manufacturers regarding stocking AMD chips and so on rolleyes.gif Which was also wrong.

Intel offered deep discounts to Dell and others to only use Intel chips, which gave them a super dominant position in the OEM market despite having an inferior product. Intel abused their position as market leader to force companies to do things their way, it was either "take these deep discounts and do things our way, or we'll cut you off all together".

They were found guilty of anti-trust and fined massively. However, the damage was already done and it's taken AMD ten years and massive debt to rebuild. But, make no mistake, this anti-competitiveness nearly killed AMD, at least twice.
Edited by Rubers - 3/6/13 at 11:23am
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post #184 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Ah, so once again we are back to the "It is right because it's the law" argument ... and to make matters worse, you now mention government, which is the BIGGEST monopoly of them all. rolleyes.gif

No, go back and read... Your arguement is based on.... "because I think it is" while not offering any information related explicitly to this case.

While my argument has specific case details, economics, multiple countries' law, and history behind it... learn to debate?


Ad hominem << refutation + counterarguement

Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Yup, they did that, and I mentioned it before.

If you want to be an OEM and get the nice price discounts, you have to abide by the terms put forth in the license agreement, which was "Only Microsoft products". If you didn't want to abide by the terms of the license, no one stopped you from putting Netscape on a PC ... you just wouldn't get a fat discount price for Microsoft products. The choice was yours. But people were GREEDY, they wanted to get cheap software AND install what they wanted as an OEM, which is (to borrow a term that Rubbers and Duckie love to say) WRONG.
That's a simplistic view of the world.

The reality of the world is this: Microsoft has market dominance. An OEM would not be able to compete without selling Windows. An OEM would not be able to compete without discounted Windows. MS then used this as a threat if an OEM included another browser. The greed is on MS side, not the OEMs. The OEMs were following stand business practices while it was MS who was not.

The law says this. All the OEMs said this. The courts says this. You don't... so who are you?


Standard Oil use to lower their prices, drive competitors out of business, and then jack up prices. Sherman Antitrust Act came from this.

China is actually doing the exact same thing with rare earth elements today.

These are market distortions that are viable only due to a company's role as a price leader. These are bad for consumers and waste resources.... leading to economic losses to society even though a company may be making money. (If you want to get technical, Macroeconomics 101 should cover this topic and the math.)
Edited by DuckieHo - 3/6/13 at 11:28am
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post #185 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purger View Post

That doesn't really stand as a good example. Auto standards DO in fact exist, such as OBD standards.

Yes it does stand as a good example. Computer standards DO in fact exist, such as TCP/IP standards. rolleyes.gif
post #186 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

While my argument has specific case details, economics, multiple countries' law, and history behind it... learn to debate?

One law, or multiple countries laws, doesn't matter, you are basically falling back to the "It's right because it's the law" argument.

Oh well, it was the law that you could own slaves in many countries in history, guess that makes it "not wrong" too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

Which was also wrong.

... and once again, there goes the "wrong" term.

Oh well, this is pointless. You can't even understand that the term "wrong" is relative, so discussing this with you is pointless.

Enjoy the rest of the thread.
post #187 of 300
They broke an agreement and got fined because of that......
This is not about MS putting IE on Windows being wrong or right.... its about MS breaking an agreement.
    
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post #188 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

One law, or multiple countries laws, doesn't matter, you are basically falling back to the "It's right because it's the law" argument.

Oh well, it was the law that you could own slaves in many countries in history, guess that makes it "not wrong" too?
... and once again, there goes the "wrong" term.

Oh well, this is pointless. You can't even understand that the term "wrong" is relative, so discussing this with you is pointless.

Enjoy the rest of the thread.
If my only basis of debate was "it's the law"... you might be right. But it isn't. Plus we know much more about the specifics of the case than you.... why don't you educate yourself about the details, then understand what happened as you repeated are missing established points.


I can prove it is negative in terms of economics and math....
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post #189 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post


... and once again, there goes the "wrong" term.

Oh well, this is pointless. You can't even understand that the term "wrong" is relative, so discussing this with you is pointless.

Enjoy the rest of the thread.

Lol, no lachen.gif
Quote:
wrong
/rôNG/
Adjective
Not correct or true.
Adverb
In an unsuitable or undesirable manner or direction: "what am I doing wrong?".
Noun
An unjust, dishonest, or immoral action.

Verb
Act unjustly or dishonestly toward (someone): "the people I have wronged".

Wrong is only relative when you want to bend the truth to suit yourself. Otherwise, there are some absolute definitions of wrong.

Anti-competitiveness is wrong, immoral and damaging to the industry. Furthermore, it's against a consumers interest and consumer interest trumps those of business.
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post #190 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

One law, or multiple countries laws, doesn't matter, you are basically falling back to the "It's right because it's the law" argument.

Oh well, it was the law that you could own slaves in many countries in history, guess that makes it "not wrong" too?
... and once again, there goes the "wrong" term.

Oh well, this is pointless. You can't even understand that the term "wrong" is relative, so discussing this with you is pointless.

Enjoy the rest of the thread.

What makes it wrong is that Microsoft agreed to it. Since MS said they were going to do it and they didn't...they got into trouble.

I mean Netscape could have also asked for Steve Balmer to dress up in a monkey costume and dance in the Netscape parking lot every Thursday afternoon. If MS and Steve agreed to it in a court of law...it would be wrong for him not to do it. Microsoft decided what was right or wrong for themselves with their agreement to the settlement. Had they fought it and lost...then it would be the Judge that decided what was right or wrong, but that is what we pay judges to do. Had they won...well then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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