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[Verge] EU fines Microsoft over $730 million for failing to include browser ballot in Windows 7 SP1 - Page 22  

post #211 of 300
I'm not sure I really get this... should it also come with alternate calculators, picture editors, etc? It's an operating system and just like all other OSs it comes with a set of programs. IE is there to download another browser of choice - if the user cares about it they'll get another one. If IE/windows being a monopoly is a problem break the company up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

12 popular browsers?
I'm betting popular only applies to half of them.
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post #212 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

So then we just say...oh you guys weren't around so the rules don't matter to you? Wow. Why not stop them from ever having the chance of repeating MS's tactics by enforcing the rules on them now? What is so hard about that? Law is supposed to be impartial. The minute you start exceptions is the minute you start cronyism and then wonder why the markets and capitalism aren't doing well. rolleyes.gif

There are no exceptions. Google don't have to provide a choice because they're not being punished for being abusive and anti-competitive.

If Google started gimping Firefox for Android intentionally so that people stopped using it and started bullying device makers to only include Chrome, then they would face as much wrath as Microsoft did. But they don't, so they don't need the punishment of showing a choice screen.


The factors of the case are not the inclusion of a stock browser.
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post #213 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

So then we just say...oh you guys weren't around so the rules don't matter to you? Wow. Why not stop them from ever having the chance of repeating MS's tactics by enforcing the rules on them now? What is so hard about that? Law is supposed to be impartial. The minute you start exceptions is the minute you start cronyism and then wonder why the markets and capitalism aren't doing well. rolleyes.gif

This is a ruling from 2000ish at least thats when the US ruling was..

GOOG wasn't around then and to this day doesn't have a monopoly share of mobile OS's..MS did and to make matters worse it was a pivotal time in the internet, standards had yet been established.

but you don't really care GOOG ships Chrome now in Android (yet the G1 didn't ) and AAPL ships Safari in OSX and iOS and thats all the though you want to give to the matter.
Edited by GermanyChris - 3/6/13 at 12:29pm
 
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post #214 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVenom View Post

I'm not sure I really get this... should it also come with alternate calculators, picture editors, etc? It's an operating system and just like all other OSs it comes with a set of programs. IE is there to download another browser of choice - if the user cares about it they'll get another one. If IE/windows being a monopoly is a problem break the company up.
I'm betting popular only applies to half of them.

Back in 1995, Microsoft released Windows 95 that shipped with Internet Explorer. However, there were a few different popular browsers around at the time. By Windows 98, they intentionally broke compatibility with these browsers to the core of the OS and made sure they didn't function as well as Internet Explorer in order to bolster their market share. They also intentionally bribed OEM's to not include competitors browsers and blackmailed them with threads. Years later, after Netscape collapsed due to these business practices (and other non-MS stuff) Opera filed a complaint. MS fought for 10 years, but admitted doing anti-competitive things and were fined heavily and punished to include a browser choice screen.

Today, the inclusion of a stock e-mail program, browser and so on, isn't an issue so long as OEM's are free to include whatever software they feel like, without harsh restrictions put in place by MS, and also, that competing products work just as well as the stock ones on the OS. For example, Thunderbird should have the same ability to be coded efficiently and work just as well as Windows Live Mail. Picsa Photo viewer should be able to use the same API functions that the Windows Photo Viewer uses.
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post #215 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

There are no exceptions. Google don't have to provide a choice because they're not being punished for being abusive and anti-competitive.

If Google started gimping Firefox for Android intentionally so that people stopped using it and started bullying device makers to only include Chrome, then they would face as much wrath as Microsoft did. But they don't, so they don't need the punishment of showing a choice screen.


The factors of the case are not the inclusion of a stock browser.

So...the factors of the case are that MS did something back when it was powerful and now that it's lost much of it's power position and the EU is finally feeling they won't be "punished" by MS for going against MS they'll "punish" MS for something it did in the past? Wow. Just wow. I dislike MS but I have no sympathy for a bunch of politicians and consumers that didn't like they choices they made in the past (supporting MS by purchasing Windows) when they could have done something about it at that time. MS did anticompetitive practices because the market didn't care. It's a little late to claim the moral ground now.
     
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post #216 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

Yep, but it's still counted in base 14 wink.gif

And it's ok, I can't understand other Brits half the time anyway, especially hailing for Yorkshire, where we all talk funny.

But also, Americans speak American English... Not British English. There's a few words that would like to discuss the way they're spelt tongue.gif

I newer much paid attention, I've leaned to rune people out living in Germany and not really speaking German..till vacation a few year back and my wife asked me what some people said to her..they were from Manchester I believe I just didn't understand them at all..

We went diving in Australia the year before my daughter was born and neither i nor my wife had issues with them..


GermanyChris' conclusion you guys gotta learn to speak English tongue.gif
 
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post #217 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

So...the factors of the case are that MS did something back when it was powerful and now that it's lost much of it's power position and the EU is finally feeling they won't be "punished" by MS for going against MS they'll "punish" MS for something it did in the past? Wow. Just wow. I dislike MS but I have no sympathy for a bunch of politicians and consumers that didn't like they choices they made in the past (supporting MS by purchasing Windows) when they could have done something about it at that time. MS did anticompetitive practices because the market didn't care. It's a little late to claim the moral ground now.

Right except this stems from the settlement from when MS was all powerful and all that..

Really though it's just the politicians and a money grab rolleyes.gif
 
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post #218 of 300
I don't see why Microsoft should be forced to offer alternative browsers, it's their software and they should be able to do what they want with it. As much as I would like Windows users to be offered alternative browsers I see no reason why Microsoft should have to do this.

It's like buying a Ford car and the dealer having to offer you steering wheels made by GM, Tata & Toyota.
     
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post #219 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

So...the factors of the case are that MS did something back when it was powerful and now that it's lost much of it's power position and the EU is finally feeling they won't be "punished" by MS for going against MS they'll "punish" MS for something it did in the past? Wow. Just wow. I dislike MS but I have no sympathy for a bunch of politicians and consumers that didn't like they choices they made in the past (supporting MS by purchasing Windows) when they could have done something about it at that time. MS did anticompetitive practices because the market didn't care. It's a little late to claim the moral ground now.

What? No, the case took 10 years to solve. Not buying Windows hasn't been much of a choice for many people. 13 years ago Apple were nothing and Linux was not a viable alternative to Windows.

It's not at alla case of "we don't like what you did then so we're doing ti now" it literally took 9-10 years to finish the case.

And MS did anti-competitive things because they could. The market didn't know about them. The market isn't expected to be able to peer into the inner-workings of the Windows 88 OS and figure out that they were intentionally fudging things for other browsers. Nor was the market supposed ot know that OEM's were being strong armed... Neither were any strong armed OEM's within the ability to refuse the blackmailing form MS and continue doing business.

Here's the deal.

MS were being anti-competitive. In 1999 a complaint was lodged in the US and EU courts.

For the EU, it took 10 years to finish, MS was fined heavily and ordered to create the browser choice screen. MS agreed. Paid the fine.

In Windows 7 SP1, they removed the screen and took months to put it back. In Windows 8 they took less time, but still shipped without it. This breaches their agreement with the courts, and finds them in contempt of court (I believe). Therefore they're being fined again this month.
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post #220 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott1541 View Post

I don't see why Microsoft should be forced to offer alternative browsers, it's their software and they should be able to do what they want with it. As much as I would like Windows users to be offered alternative browsers I see no reason why Microsoft should have to do this.

It's like buying a Ford car and the dealer having to offer you steering wheels made by GM, Tata & Toyota.

Oh dear god... car analogies again.

It's a punishment because they had a history of being anti-competitive. They were in the wrong. They admitted it. The choice screen is because they abused their position.

Also, you're wrong, they should be forced to provide a choice since they gained their share illegitimately and on the backs of others.
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