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[PCGH.de] Titan sli Vs 7970 Toxic cf - Page 51

post #501 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post


Being the fastest GPU is why the 580 got away with costing $500 while the 570 and 6970 were in the $360 range.

Not exactly. Nvidia/geforce brand name is stronger than AMD/Radeon one. Even when 7970GE surpassed the 680 ,the latter still could fetch a higher price. AMD the past couple years is doing a very good job with performance/drivers/marketing but they still have a lesson or two to learn from nvidia. Titan is priced that high because nvidia can sell it that high. Nothing to do with AMD.
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post #502 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

Not exactly. Nvidia/geforce brand name is stronger than AMD/Radeon one. Even when 7970GE surpassed the 680 ,the latter still could fetch a higher price. AMD the past couple years is doing a very good job with performance/drivers/marketing but they still have a lesson or two to learn from nvidia. Titan is priced that high because nvidia can sell it that high. Nothing to do with AMD.

I wrote a small wall-o-text on that a few weeks back:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Okay guys here's the deal:

Nvidia actually wants to price their big dies (500mm^2+) higher than $500. This is because they're very expensive, have a lot of R&D money put into them and have low yields.

What made the 480 and 580 cost $500 then? Competition.

Let's look at the circumstances at the launch of the past pew NV flagships:

GTX 280: Huge die, priced at $650 with basic high end GPU features, has to drop in price very soon because of AMD releasing a GTX 260 matching 4870 for ~$300. NV has to stay competitive and was relying on their high end GPU for the mainstream stuff as well, they have to lower the price in order to sell it because G92 isn't cutting it anymore.

GTX 285: Same story but without the initial high price because of AMD already having their cards out. Only shrinking the process and a bit higher OCs and better thermals aren't enough to price it much above the then discounted 280. NV is still using G92 for their lower end parts and has to still manage some of the mainstream ($300 range) with the expensive GT200b. GT200b did though save them from making a nearly 600mm^2 die for mainstream cards which is probably the reason for why it was even die shrinked. The price can't go higher because of AMD's 4890.

GTX 480: Again a massive die, card is massively late, hogs more power than ever seen before (single GPU) and has lots of bad publicity even before launch. The performance barely warrants the $500 price compared to the $400 5870. NV tries to market the card with more VRAM, CUDA, PhysX etc. They also have to use the die for 470s and 465s again making it a mainstream chip as well. This isn't a choice, it's a must for them because of AMD's product range. The smaller GF104 appears much later and is no match for AMD's products and can't be used to counter high end products.

GTX 580: NV is unaware of what AMD might release after seeing the 5870 matching 6870 (well almost). The 580 provides 10% increase over the older 480 while actually decreasing the die just a tad, improving thermals etc. They can't price it much higher than their own card because the 400 series wasn't even selling well and the 5870 had been discounted to around $370. a $500 price is set as a counter to possible future AMD GPUs, however the 6970 that was originally planned as a $500 card (leaks showing listings from different etailers etc. showed this) barely matches the 480 and can't compete with the 580, AMD has to price the card similarly to the discounted 5870.

At this point NV saw how important the GF104, GF114, GK104 die was due to the huge volume of sales they produced. A decision is made to give the mainstream chip more attention so it will be on the market sooner.

GTX 680: This time NV already knows the performance of the 7970 which has launched at an expensive $550. Multiple leaks originating from before 7970 era launch plans of NV (drivers, early cooler images etc) show GK104 being introduced as GTX670Ti due to NV thinking it can't match a single 7970. After seeing how AMD's new card performs and where it is priced though NV can bump the name of GK104 up to GTX 680 and grab a big portion of the high end GPU market by releasing it at $500. GK100 is either failed or too expensive to use for anything at this point. Being able to compete with a smaller die, GK104, is a huge plus for NV who have achieved a much bigger jump in performance than AMD (per mm^2), the biggest jump since G80 in fact. Added plus is the GK104 memory controller that blows even NV engineers away and makes it possible for the GK104 to function as a high end GPU even in situations that might need high bandwidth. After this AMD launches a price war, bundle war, renaming war and a driver war to make their lineup more lucrative but the damage has already been done and the 600 series has very good rep outside the enthusiast scene.

GTX Titan: GK110 is expensive to produce, supercomputer firms, universities, etc. are screaming for GK110 based teslas which NV provides as soon as they have tens of thousands of GK110s that have low enough leakage and enough working SMXs. K20s are being sold in late september before the launch of the official cards. One of the customers is the Titan supercomputer, needing around 16,000 units.
As usual NV intends to sell the more leaky chips as GeForce ones as has been speculated for well over half a year. Nvidia has a card that can without any trouble beat a 680 and a 7970, the performance difference is much bigger than anything we've seen before, high enough that the card doesn't have any competition at all in the single GPU arena, even less so than the 580. On top of this the card is also almost 100% sure to not have any single GPU competition in the next year or even after that because of AMD and NV being stuck on the 28nm process. Nvidia has also been catching flak for bad compute features lately.
Nvidia doesn't need this expensive chip to compete with AMD and thus has no intentions of releasing it as a normal card part of their normal naming scheme and lineup. That task is reserved for GK114 most likely. However the performance doesn't quite warrant the price of a halo-card-esque pricing of the 690. A decision is made to still release GK110 as Titan for $999 but to load the card with features to make up for the performance that isn't quite up there with the 690. The cooler is similar, users will have full overclocking abilities, etc. And on top of this DP performance is left untouched making the card lucrative for individuals who wish to do GPGPU work but unattractive for big companies. The card is also a huge marketing tool which shows when looking at the emphasis on thermals and OEM systems like those of Origin PC's maingear's etc. The card will enhance NV's brand by setting all the records and being the best. A high price will only reinforce this effect even if it might be bad for the average consumer.
Titan is a product of no competition in the same performance range at all aside from multi GPU setups which don't really matter due to Titan being able to do 4-way SLI, taking less space, being quieter, having the ability to be installed in SFF builds etc.


Pricing has everything to do with the competition. Everything.

So no, your $500 high end GPU isn't going anywhere. If AMD releases the 8970 or the 9970 as powerful enough to make using GK114 or GM104 impossible, NV will be forced to use GK110 or GM100 for normal GPUs. And unless AMD pulls a miracle out of their ass (something like the next version of pitcairn/smaller level chips performing on the level or above NV GK114/GM104) they can't price their cards higher either.

The only thing that allows TItan to be priced at $999 is the huge jump in performance made with kepler. If the manufacturers want to keep raising prices they have to be able to make lower end chips handily outperform previous high end chips. This might have happened once or twice but it is not by any definition the norm and in normal circumstances a price hike of the extreme high end products isn't possible. Due to the huge advances made with kepler NV is most likely going to struggle with Maxwell when trying to maintain similar advances in performance of their chips (they hit the jackpot once, now a new architecture that is better than an incredible one is very hard to do). The jump will most likely be smaller forcing the price of the top of the line chip down. This is of course assuming that AMD keeps putting out GPUs at a steady pace.

I can't see how what AMD does would NOT have an affect on NV's prices. It definitely has had an effect before.
 
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post #503 of 666
Im very anxious for maxwell itself than titan i would paid 1k for a maxwell gpu if everything around rumours is true...
This can be one of the biggest jumps on gpu history if they do it right...

But knowing tegra is not that so great compared to the other ones im debating XD..

Amd can do the same aswell.. Which in fact they are investing on this technology more than nvidia..
Edited by zGunBLADEz - 3/11/13 at 12:15pm
post #504 of 666
I stand by my point. 680 pretty much can fetch a higher price than 7970GE even now ,as we speak, on many markets. AMD has to offer higher performane on lower price and on top of that free games to get market share. They could offer a "7980" at 110% titan performance at 790 euros and still they would get outsold. It is uphill, they are doing progress but they have ALOT to learn by team Green.
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post #505 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomama22 View Post

If you notice, the people talking about price/performance are mostly those who do not own one, regardless if they are for or against the titans price justification.

Personally, why someone buys one has no barring on how I feel about the price. It's not as though I have to make a justification of why I am not buying it just as people who decided to pull the trigger.

Tpus quote is a bit brash. It is automatically assuming that anyone who doesn't agree with then price just has no ground to stand on simply because it must "not be for you." Its a bit insulting to assume "Enthusiast" are just freelance consumers with no regard for value. Both for those who buy and those who do not.

At the end of the day, whether you buy one or not, you should feel confident you made the right decision. But to bash people on their decision to swing either way only shows how controversial this GPU actually is.

I think that is the missing key. The mere fact we have to sit here and have these debates show that it is not as cut and dry to label those arguing price/performance as naive or "justifying the purchase/non purchase".

People will have opinions, it is what makes humanity awesome, but it is sad that some take their opinion and go way overboard or attack those that do not agree. But it must be said that not talking about price/performance just to appease those who say "its the best GPU so what does it matter, its not for you" is not what this or any other forum is about. If it was as easy to just let it go, then why ever have any value comparisons for any GPU?
This thumb.gif

At least there is some common sense in this terrible thread lol.

For some reason even thinking about the Titans price is taboo. I just don't get it, it's a GPU and like any other GPU you look at what it offers for what it asks..
Edited by th3illusiveman - 3/11/13 at 12:27pm
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post #506 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I wrote a small wall-o-text on that a few weeks back:
I can't see how what AMD does would NOT have an affect on NV's prices. It definitely has had an effect before.

Most educational post I've read all day on this thread.

Respect.
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post #507 of 666
People also forget there is more to titan than gaming.

Even titan owners forget that too.
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post #508 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by bencher View Post

People also forget there is more to titan than gaming.

Even titan owners forget that too.

The problem with that is that what us normal users do on computing side, it is folding, bitcoin and hashes and nvidia seriously sucks on bitcoining and hash cracking XD

Then you see this
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-titan-performance-review,3442-10.html

and you start wondering what happen there
post #509 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

I stand by my point. 680 pretty much can fetch a higher price than 7970GE even now ,as we speak, on many markets. AMD has to offer higher performane on lower price and on top of that free games to get market share. They could offer a "7980" at 110% titan performance at 790 euros and still they would get outsold. It is uphill, they are doing progress but they have ALOT to learn by team Green.

it doesn't help that every time someone asks what should i buy an nvidia card or amd card the first response is that driver support is horribad on the amd side.
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post #510 of 666
I personally do not know why everybody is getting so worked up about this. If I can draw a metaphor; It is a bit like the car market, with it's multiple tiers of of cars, the $1000 cards are like super-cars, with the 680's and 7970's the stop gap of performance cars (BMW M3, Nissan GTR etc). I don't resent a Ferrari because I can't afford it, it is petty and pathetic. However sometimes those cars don't warrant the cost, Ex Jaguar XJR-15, it was expensive, but it's performance was only comparable to something like a M3, due to it was unstable at high speeds. Though the Titan is undoubtedly faster then the 680's and 7970's it's just not fast enough to really justify its existence. It does have some niche appeal, Micro towers for the space limits, power supply limits, no scaling headaches, and less heat generated. But remember the main market for the Titan (due to it's pricing) is enthusiast, which usually do not face those niche appeal issues.

The Titan is a fantastic card, but a bit of a flop considering the state of the market (look at all this rage lachen.gif), it's Price to Performance isn't great, that is true. But it's not a bad card by any margin, just it's appeal is limited. Stop getting mad at people who bought them, and by extension the card itself (It makes you look like a fool). And to the some people (you know who you are) who did buy the cards, stop acting like snobs, by defending your purchase with insults (It also makes you look like a fool). I personally can't buy one, but I respect the design, engineering, and performance of said card. The only thing I really don't like about it, is Nvidia seems to have made the focus of the Titan to dethrone AMD for the single fastest GPU advertising rights, rather then giving the market fresh cards. If we are going to hate on something, lets hate things that deserve it (Bad design, Broken drivers, etc: i.e Microsoft ME). cheers.gif
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