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post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

Please, don't start that - most of what issues? As if AMD cards are automatically going to have issues and Nvidias get off scott free? Comeon now - no one called a 660, or 660ti slow, let alone a 670.

For a budget of $250 the 7870 LE is the best card bar none. This isn't a "well they are neck and neck" because the 7870 LE is a cut down tahiti chip. A 660ti may be slightly faster, but the cheapest 660ti is 275 bucks for a reference cooled one. Not only is that 40 bucks more than the near identical performing 7870LE, it also is 25 bucks over his budget and does not include two brand new AAA games which are a $120 value right now as Tomb Raider just got released and Bioshock isn't even out yet.

This isn't about being biased towards a brand, it's about getting the best for the money and in his price range, Nvidia has nothing to compete against it. This isn't arguable unfortunately as they refuse to lower the 660ti's price. And besides, if you wanted to spend 660ti money, get a 7950 boost which outperforms it anyways for the same amount while having more memory, and more bandwidth wink.gif

Just trying to help someone out thumb.gif

Except, your posts makes it seems like AMD cards are the only ones that can perform well. Sorry, but in reality the difference between a 660 and a 7870 LE stock isn't noticeable. In your very words:

"The 660 is a majorly cutdown card. "

Secondly, Nvidia cards have their own bundles which are selling on Ebay for quite a bit. On the other hand, don't expect all that much for that Tomb Raider bundle. It is not a $120 value, it's closer to around $30-40 on the market right now due to the extreme saturation. I just bought a 7950, and I know how much these bundles are going for.

The 7870 LE isn't all that impressive. If the hard limit is $250, then yes, I would go for a 7870 LE, but it's not all that you make it sound like it is. But when GTX 660s dip below $200 in price quite often, I'd say that's a better deal overall on a budget build.

I've had a GTX 660, a GTX 670, a 7950 and a 7970, and even though you don't get those aftermarket coolers on the Nvidia cards, they run much smoother in operation than the AMD cards. Given the current pricing, I'd say the 7870LE would be a better card at the same price as the 660, but in recent history the GTX 660 has been significantly cheaper and runs with less issues. TBH, I wouldn't get either a 660 Ti or a 7870 LE, either stick with the $200 7870s and 660s, or wait for a $250-270 7950, or a $300 670.
Edited by CiTRxJ - 3/11/13 at 1:56pm
post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by CiTRxJ View Post

Except, your posts makes it seems like AMD cards are the only ones that can perform well. Sorry, but in reality the difference between a 660 and a 7870 LE stock isn't noticeable. In your very words:

"The 660 is a majorly cutdown card. "

Secondly, Nvidia cards have their own bundles which are selling on Ebay for quite a bit. On the other hand, don't expect all that much for that Tomb Raider bundle. It is not a $120 value, it's closer to around $30-40 on the market right now due to the extreme saturation. I just bought a 7950, and I know how much these bundles are going for.

The 7870 LE isn't all that impressive. If the hard limit is $250, then yes, I would go for a 7870 LE, but it's not all that you make it sound like it is. But when GTX 660s dip below $200 in price quite often, I'd say that's a better deal overall on a budget build.

I've had a GTX 660, a GTX 670, a 7950 and a 7970, and even though you don't get those aftermarket coolers on the Nvidia cards, they run much smoother in operation than the AMD cards. Given the current pricing, I'd say the 7870LE would be a better card at the same price as the 660, but in recent history the GTX 660 has been significantly cheaper and runs with less issues. TBH, I wouldn't get either a 660 Ti or a 7870 LE, either stick with the $200 7870s and 660s, or wait for a $250-270 7950, or a $300 670.

To avoid any bias here as someone who came from a gtx480 to a 7970GE I see a few problems....

To start;

As far as the 7870 not being impressive, take a look here: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Club_3D/HD_7870_jokerCard_Tahiti_LE/28.html @ 1080p it's within 1% of the performance of a $275+ 660ti

Even the regular 7870 outperforms the 660 by 5% on average at 1080p.

And yes, the 660 is a majorly cut down card compared to the high end models. A 7870 LE is still tahiti based, that's all I was getting at.

Also....you note they run much smoother? Please do explain and god help us all if you trying to start with the frame latency nonsense that was a) not noticeable and b) has been resolved or toned to an extent that even the biggest of whiners don't see it. This issue mostly affected cards in crossfire anyways

As far as the pricing of games go, who is talking about selling them? I'm saying it's $120 in free games. After all who buys a new card and doesn't game on it? And if you choose to sell them, even for 50% of their normal price, that's -60 dollars you spend bringing the 7870LE well under $200.

I'm just trying to help Terrere spend the money properly and get the best for it in his price range and quite frankly it's not a contest right now. So bottom line is you can't go wrong with either, but you get a lot more for your dollar if you go AMD here. The games are only icing on the cake whether you decide to enjoy them or sell them and get an even better bargain money wise.

If you'd like to discuss this further I believe we've derailed the thread enough CiTRxJ, so take it to PM though I don't think you disagree in the sense that the 7870LE is the best card for his budget.
Edited by SoloCamo - 3/11/13 at 2:36pm
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post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by CiTRxJ View Post

Well, this guy seems intent on selling you an AMD card.
That being said, the 660, 660 TI, and 670 are by no means slow cards. The 660 outruns a 7850 and runs alongside the 7870 while maintaining a smaller PCB and lower TDP. .

wat

bf3_1920_1200.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

If you'd like to discuss this further I believe we've derailed the thread enough CiTRxJ, so take it to PM though I don't think you disagree in the sense that the 7870LE is the best card for his budget.

hard
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post #14 of 23
Thread Starter 
I came back and saw my thread had exploded a bit... I have no problem with being told what cards to look at, I look over benchmarks from several sites anyway before I make final decisions. I play WoW atm and it has normally been more Nvidia biased, which is why I decided outright to first view Nvidia cards. I'm probably not going to be continuing WoW after DnD:Neverwinter launches so that is pretty much a moot point. I like that you guys both set out viable options in my price range and thank you greatly for your input! I didn't see this get as unruly as some other threads with Nvidia vs AMD. Or worse AMD vs Intel. I've been following benchmarks for the Nvidia line pretty closely so comparing the AMD line now shouldn't be an issue.
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post #15 of 23
Thread Starter 
After looking at the stock clocks on the 7870GHz edition and the 660 Superclocked I posted earlier, the clock on the 660 is higher...
EVGA 660 Superclocked
Asus 660
Asus 7870 GHz edition
HIS 7870 GHz edition

Compared them all and both 660s have higher clocks on GPU and memory for the same price. The only thing I can see ranking higher for the 7870 is the memory bit-width where the 660 has 192 and the 7870 has 256. I know that affects performance, but having nearly 1.3 GHz faster memory clock also affects performance. All in all... they are very close in terms of specs so no one card really shows stronger than the other. I'm reviewing benchmarks for the cards now.
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post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrere View Post

After looking at the stock clocks on the 7870GHz edition and the 660 Superclocked I posted earlier, the clock on the 660 is higher...
EVGA 660 Superclocked
Asus 660
Asus 7870 GHz edition
HIS 7870 GHz edition

Compared them all and both 660s have higher clocks on GPU and memory for the same price. The only thing I can see ranking higher for the 7870 is the memory bit-width where the 660 has 192 and the 7870 has 256. I know that affects performance, but having nearly 1.3 GHz faster memory clock also affects performance. All in all... they are very close in terms of specs so no one card really shows stronger than the other. I'm reviewing benchmarks for the cards now.

Definitely review as much as you can, but when reviewing 7870's, make sure it's the LE / aka ghz editions.

Also, just for clarities sake, when they are two different architectures such as this, core clock speed isn't relative to each other. If it was 7870 @ X mhz vs 7870 @ Y mhz, that's one thing, but the two are not related directly when comparing different cards.

For example, the HIS 7870ghz you are looking at runs at 1000mhz (1ghz), however when you compare it's performance against a card like the 7970 whose core clock 'only' runs at 925mhz, you will still find that the 7970 is much faster overall.

Also, bandwidth is (in rough terms) produced by both the mhz of the memory, the type of memory, and the memory bus. So in other words, with a higher memory bus, such as 256 vs 192, you will generally find that the cards with the higher bus speed have more bandwidth, which is definitely the case with a 7870 vs 660, let alone a 7870 LE vs 660.

For example... 680 vs 7970

Memory Speed of the 680 is 1502 MHz (6008 MHz effective)

Memory Speed of the 7970 is 1375 MHz (5500 MHz effective)

However, the 680 is on a 256bit bus and the 7970 is on a 384bit bus. Thus the actual bandwidth produced is 'only' 192gb/s on the 680 side and 264gb/s on the 7970 side, even with much slower memory.

Higher bandwidth allows the cards to handle much higher resolutions and more AA with ease compared to lower bandwidth and in general, these cards will do better in the long haul.
Edited by SoloCamo - 3/11/13 at 5:20pm
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post #17 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

Definitely review as much as you can, but when reviewing 7870's, make sure it's the LE / aka ghz editions.

Also, just for clarities sake, when they are two different architectures such as this, core clock speed isn't relative to each other. If it was 7870 @ X mhz vs 7870 @ Y mhz, that's one thing, but the two are not related directly when comparing different cards.

For example, the HIS 7870ghz you are looking at runs at 1000mhz (1ghz), however when you compare it's performance against a card like the 7970 whose core clock 'only' runs at 925mhz, you will still find that the 7970 is much faster overall.

Also, bandwidth is (in rough terms) produced by both the mhz of the memory, the type of memory, and the memory bus. So in other words, with a higher memory bus, such as 256 vs 192, you will generally find that the cards with the higher bus speed have more bandwidth, which is definitely the case with a 7870 vs 660, let alone a 7870 LE vs 660.

For example... 680 vs 7970

Memory Speed of the 680 is 1502 MHz (6008 MHz effective)

Memory Speed of the 7970 is 1375 MHz (5500 MHz effective)

However, the 680 is on a 256bit bus and the 7970 is on a 384bit bus. Thus the actual bandwidth produced is 'only' 192gb/s on the 680 side and 264gb/s on the 7970 side, even with much slower memory.

Higher bandwidth allows the cards to handle much higher resolutions and more AA with ease compared to lower bandwidth and in general, these cards will do better in the long haul.

Gotcha, that's the reason why I posted that. I knew it affected performance in some way, but I've never really needed a high performance card before so I wanted to get as much information together to be sure I'm happy. I don't think I can go wrong with GX660+ or 7850/70+ for my needs. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

Definitely review as much as you can, but when reviewing 7870's, make sure it's the LE / aka ghz editions.

Not trying to attack you or anything, but I feel the need to point this out. there is a slight difference in the 7870 Tahiti chips the 7870 XT from Sapphire are the absolute best tahiti based 7870's you can get.

5158_26_sapphire_radeon_hd_7870_xt_tahiti_le_2gb_with_boost_overclocked_video_card_review.png

But it is also the most expensive in its class. Again it all comes down to you get what you pay for. If I was in the OP's situation I would go with the Sapphire 7870 XT and put a nice OC on it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202024&Tpk=7870%20xt

Look at how close it is to a 7950 in performance. Just as mentioned before the XT is a knocked down 7950 with 2GB Vram, 256 bit memory bus.

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc-mac/pc-components/graphics-cards/sapphire-radeon-hd-7870-xt-1130535/review
Scroll down to middle.
Edited by Kosai - 3/11/13 at 5:29pm
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post #19 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosai View Post

Not trying to attack you or anything, but I feel the need to point this out. there is a slight difference in the 7870 Tahiti chips the 7870 XT from Sapphire are the absolute best tahiti based 7870's you can get.

All good, glad you mentioned it. To be honest I forget the XT version even existed thumb.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrere View Post

Gotcha, that's the reason why I posted that. I knew it affected performance in some way, but I've never really needed a high performance card before so I wanted to get as much information together to be sure I'm happy. I don't think I can go wrong with GX660+ or 7850/70+ for my needs. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

No problem at all. By all means, they are all pretty good cards at the end of the day, so you can't really go wrong with any of them biggrin.gif
Edited by SoloCamo - 3/11/13 at 6:11pm
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post #20 of 23
OP right now the best performance for USD 250 is the HD 7870 Tahiti LE. depending on the reviews you see the HD 7870 Tahiti LE is faster or on par with GTX 660 Ti. also with a 256 bit memory subsystem and 32 ROPs it scales like a beast in overclocking. the Sapphire HD 7870 XT has the best cooling of the Tahiti LE options.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202024

Tahiti LE reviews

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews/1651/pg1/sapphire-hd-7870-xt-with-boost-tahiti-le-graphics-card-review-introduction.html
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/01/01/powercolor_radeon_hd_7870_myst_edition_review/
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Club_3D/HD_7870_jokerCard_Tahiti_LE/28.html

here is a user comparing HD 7950 and HD 7870 Tahiti LE at 1 Ghz

http://www.overclock.net/t/1345122/sapphire-hd-7870-xt-based-on-amd-tahiti-le-chip/70#post_19294019

a firestrike graphics score of 6000 puts it ahead of GTX 660 Ti which boosts to 1 Ghz out of the box easily and scores 5720.

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/General-Tech/New-3DMark-Benchmark-Testing-Smartphones-Multi-GPU-Gaming-PCs/Fire-Strike-Stand
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